I am not sure what you mean...Bayern never went trough a crisis. They were still top in the Bundesliga but have not invested enough to stay at the top of Europe. This has nevertheless been always the same. If you look at the statistics, Bayern play each decade 2-3 Europe Cup finals. In the 00s it's been just one so far but I am sure there's enough time to bring on one more.

...only to come back. Look at all great European teams, Madrid, Milan, Liverpool, Bayern, Ajax...they all had quite large drought periods just to come back and dominate football again...

Borussia Dortmund is the best counter-example. They were founding members of the G14, they have won all the Cups which a team can possibly win, they went to the stock-market and there they went...they still have 70 Million Euros debt after having over 250. I am sure they'll be back one day. I used to hate this team cause they were Bayern's main opponent in Germany (and in Europe, see 1998 Champiosn League) but now I just feel sorry for them. Their tradition, history and their awesome fans (average of 80 000 spectators per championship game - highest in Europe) simply deserve better.

I have just read that Van Bommel has been suspended for one additional game because of the red card he got against Real and because of his "obscene" gesture while celebrating his goal in Madrid. He will miss both games against AC MILAN which is quite a set-back for Bayern as he developed into an important leader. ...damn it!!!

I was just pointing out that Bayern hadn't suffered the same setback in form as the only two clubs who had been more successful you mentioned earlier. They seem to be maintaining it better than the giants of La Liga and Serie A.

Yes but look at the competeters in the Bundesliga.
In Spain there is always Barca & Real and then even subtop is strong - valencia, sevilla, atletico, in Italy always Milan, Inter & Juve, sub roma, in England always Arsenal & Man unt and now Chelsea, sub Liverpool and whoever i forget

Germany always had one and just one very big team. Werder had a while when they could hurt Bayern, there was one or two years where even teams as Kaiserlautern could play for title (probs during bayerns crisis).
There isn't real resistance...
The quality about Bayern always been is that they play along in Europe without having the same resitance (= practise) in domestic competetion

I would say that is true for the last few years but not for the 90s and the 00s.
Dortmund and Leverkusen were class opponents and the Bayern - Dortmund games where always top class derbies. Let's not forget that Dortmund won the Champions League and played the UEFA Cup final whereas Leverkusen beat all English teams to lose against Madrid in the final (while the same year Dortmund lost the UEFA Cup final to Feyenord). I always thought the competition in the Bundesliga was much stronger than in England where only ManU and Arsenal mattered (reffering to the mid 90s to early 00s). Liverpool and Chelsea came in quite recently.

Kaiserslautern only made it once (in recent times, 1998) to the title. They came with Otto Rehagel(coach of Greece) from the 2nd league and won it directly. Then they beat Barcelona in the Champions League so it's not like they won it cause Bayern was in a crisis. The difference between Germany and say France is that in Germany there always is competition, only it tends to be quite often a different opponent for Bayern whereas Lyon has no competition at all.

Yes of course, Dortmund how can I forget, I was at the freakin' final in Rotterdam vs Feyenoord.

Anyways geussing we seeing it each a different way. Sure Dortmund was there for a while, Leverkussen did good but I actually ment over longer period say 30 years. Can't imagine any team in Germany even managed to top Bayern's budget for more then 2 years (could be wrong though).
France is a laugh, they don't have any team who has been constantly on top, league and budget for more then 6 years, except for Lyon now and they are really lonely at the top.

England always had man unt & arsenal. Not sure though about Liverpool, werent they very big in the 80's with Grobbelaar? - could be wrong here also. But agreed England weren't internationaly as top as competition untill mid 90's when foreign players really started there (Cantona, Gullit, Vialli etc). Geuss untill then or few years later your absolutely right about Germany having more competetion, I don't see it nowadays however.

Italy gets his downside now, they had a briliant competition in the 80's and 90's always had their top teams, Spain has been in my opinion always a ruled by just two teams, Barca & Real, like Holland with PSV & Ajax... (noticing I don't mention Feyenoord altough they beat Dortmund in final 2002)

I really hope for a big competetion for smaller competetion, imagine top 7 germany, top 5 france, top 4 holland, top 2 belgium (altough just Holland & Belgium merging seems more realistic)

I was sooo happy they lost. They had just won the Bundesliga and Leverkusen was 2nd (like in all 3 competitions they took part in that year) and Bayern 3rd. The first 2 were playing European finals and I was just watchin being sad.

Looking back at history, Bayern's main opponent in the late 60s(that's when we got big) was Dortmund. In the 70s it was Borussia Mönchengladbach. In the 80s it was Hamburg, in the 90s it was Dortmund and Leverkusen and in the 00s it seems it is Werder Bremen. Regarding budgets, German teams have very low TV contracts that's why in recent years, especially since the Kirch-Media Coup, the Bundesliga has tremendously declined in quality. things are slightly improving but still it can't compete with the Premiership. German teams still get most money from T-shirt advertising (Schalke 04 gets 25 Million Euros a year, nobody gets that much) and out of the Champions League (bayern is num,ber 1 top earner in CL history) and also from the stadiums...but in any other league, this money is maybe half of what they get from TV. Bayern has had good management and they accumulated a lot of money (used to be 2nd wealthiest club in the world after ManU) so it could afford buying the best players of its direct opponents: Basler, Pizzaro, Ismael (Bremen), Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio (Leverkusen), Van Buyten (Hamburg) staying this way on top every year. I guess it's more a matter of good management than of anything else. Of course, DORTMUND was wealthy enough on its own but stock registration ruined them. Has little to with football...


Not always, the 70s and 80s were dominated by Liverpool, Nottingham Forrest and Leeds. ManU and Arsenal dominated the league only in the 90s.

England had at least one Champions Cup winner each decade. I guess they did not have any international results because they got a 7 year ban after the 1985 final when Liverpool met Juve and it ended in riots and a lot of fans died. It took them quite a while to recover from that but now they have the best league in the world, by far...also helped by the immense money inflow which runs there these day (but again, which was first, hen or egg, money or performance?)

agreed....although, doesn't Feyenord have a Champions Cup as well?

NO WAY. I mean, all respect for Holland but if you go lower than 5th place, it's pretty much the level of German 2nd league. Belgium is not even worth mentioning. And in France, there's only one real team anyway. I mean, look at Lense who is second. They only luckily beat Leverkusen at home with 2-1 and Leverkusen is currently 7th...so, no.

I would say right now, the best league is by far the Premiership followed by the Spanish League.Then joint 3rd place Germany and Italy.

cant argue with that...

Yep, and Ajax has 3 Champions cups, 2 EC2 & 2 Uefa. PSV 1 champions & 1 Eufa (or EC2)

Yep that is why I said top 4 Holland (Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord & AZ), long term 2 of those can easily finish in top 5 Germany yearly, 1 going for title every 2 years
Well ok agree with Belgium, altough Anderlecht and/or Club Brugge are getting better, and hey I like the Belgiums...
Not know enough of France, but could top 3 finish in top 10 Bundesliga?

All in all, it would be another top competition - at least better then anyone seperate, lots more income so everyone gains I geuss

Bayern Munchen
Schalke
Werder Bremen
Stuttgart
Leverkusen
Dortmund
Ajax
PSV
Feyenoord
AZ
Lyon
Marseille (?)
Monaco (?)
Auxerre (?)
Anderlecht
Club Brugge

What do you think, better then Bundesliga at itself?

Edit: HSV should be there aswell me thinks

kick out Brugge, add Hamburg and maybe Gladbach for their tradition(3 Uefa cups, 2 Champions Cup final, 2 Cup Winner Cup finals) and there you have a great league, indeed :)

Btw, Ajax has 3 Champions Cups and one Champions League (1995). They beat the shit out of Bayern in the semifinals that year.

good lets make it happen!

yeah i know, stupid bastards that they are (ajax)