let's talk about george bush
 

we've not had a decent non religion orientated debate here in a while.

so he's had 6 and a half years in office now i'm just curious what perceptions people have of him now and whether they are any different from before.

I'll embarassingly admit I fell for the whole WMD excuse for going into iraq and supported the invasion and both the US and UK governments *removes fishing hook from mouth* but as reality and hindsight set in I've done a complete 180 on it.

I'm not a total "bush is the anti-christ" person and i don't think he orchestrated 9/11 for personal gain and I don't think he's as stupid as he makes out to be but in just over half a decade he has managed to wreck America's standing in the world and it'll take A LONG time to regain any sort of semblence of respect the world over.

Prior to Bush and his dealings alot of people elsewhere didn't like america but alot of it really boiled down to jealousy or small mindedness whereas Bush has validated reasons to hate the US I mean he's set a very dangerous precedent and who knows where it could lead. Considering how threatening alot of americans see china we could theoretically see a pre-emptive strike on them in the next decade or two which if happens it's pretty much good night vienna the world woul dbe thrown back into the stone age.

finally I'll say one of the most damning pieces of evidence i could give against him is that when he came into power i was pretty much a thatcherite tory hence why i supported the invasion. although he's not the sole proponent, george played a large part in moving me well away from right wing politics partly through embarassment partly through thinking: "is this the kind of shit I want to condone?"

a man who can change strong beliefs that someone has been socialised with throughout life through his negative actions and follies is not someone i particularly want running the free world.


slight aside: on a politics forum i post on some idiot american neo con has an avatar that says: LET'S DEFEAT COMMUNISM AGAIN IN 2008

the picture that accompanies this is one of hillary clinton with a red cross through her face like a no smoking sign.

I suppose it's fitting that someone like bush rules a country where someone like a clinton can be considered communist.

you don't honestly belive there is even a slight chance that the US will atatck China, do you? The momentum for that is long gone. America, needs at least 10 years to recover from the Iraq war (once it finally ends) and in 20 years time, China will have a higher GDP than America. China already are the 2nd larger spender on war technologies and research, judging by public figures. Who knows what they are doing under the table. To defaet China, one would need the whole world to ally and this will only happen if China gives a good reason for that to happen. And as a person who hast analyzed Chinese development for quite some time, I can tell you Chinese government is simply too smart to do something stupid.

Coming back to Bush, I think it's all been overly exaggerated but I know that such an attitude is not neccesarily welcomed on this forum so I won't even get into that. Although W. wasn't the best of America's presidents, there certainly were worse ones, still the country managed to recover. What it takes is just a good next president. RG, hopefully!

i said it set a dangerous precedent that could potentially lead to them attacking china.

the fact that they're quickly becoming to a level of economic a miliatry equilibrium with the US would give them an incentive especially considering we've got two massive entities vying for control of diminishing finite resources, it's a long shot but its not totally unthinkable that it could happen. alot can happen geopolitically in 2 decades...

think about it. in 1997 as far as the western world was concerned we were pretty much conflict free except a slight blip in the balkans. all it took was the events over a few hours 4 years after that that's led to where we are now...

i doubt it will happen but the precedent for pre-emptive war has been set and there's alot of americans who would not only gladly welcome a war with iran but also one with china whether it was based on false information or not.

Where to begin on George Bush?

He's a corrupt failure for one. By corrupt I don't mean the whole democraticunderground.org BusHitlerChenyHaliburton derangement syndrome. I mean that he's been corrupted by ideals other than that of his party, and that's why he's the failure he is: because he's alienated all the people who make up the rank and file of the Republican party, and also a lot of conservatives who don't necessarily identify with the Republicans.

My dad says it best: The Republicans of today are the Democrats of the 20th century, and the Democrats today are the Socialists of the 20th century.

Instead of small government (which the Republicans say they are the only ones to promise, and which everyone votes for no matter who promises it), Bush has given us huge and intrusive government under the guise of keeping us safe from terrorists. Much like the Democrats are trying to give us under the guise of keeping us safe from ourselves and our own responsibilities. The Republican party is supposed to be the "go about your own damn business" party, and they're not anymore.

Intrusive surveillance, with more wanted? Check.
Amnesty for 12mil criminal aliens? Check.
Gun bans? Check.
Clintonesque diversionary wars? Check.

And these are just the ones I can think up off the top of my head. With a day off work and a mission statement, I could probably come up with a dozen more platforms he's borrowed from the Socialists of the 20th century. I never thought I'd see these things under a Republican administration.

And THAT is why Bush is a corrupt failure. Because he betrayed his party and became a Democrat.

Adrian

I've never read anything as stupid as that before. My oh my...

Do you plan to refute anything, or is the above your whole argument?

Adrian

adrian you're an intelligent guy but your socialism remarks are wayyyyyyyy off.

the current republicans are pretty much the anti-thesis of socialism and the democrats are nothing more than "republicanism lite" no matter what any person, party, politician or media outlet tells you.

Go to the socialist party website (or the communist party website) and compare party planks with those of the Democratic party. The similarities are startling.

Free education including higher learning
Free health care for everyone
Abortions for everyone
No southern border, or penalties for crossing it illegally
Raising the minimum wage to absurd levels
Social welfare programs up the ying yang

The donkeys aren't railing about the proletariat just yet, but Mr. Marx gave us the rope and we've been hanging ourselves for the last fifty years.

Adrian

ETA:The antithesis of those listed platforms is what the Republican party used to be about, pre-Bush. Now you see them embracing them slightly, instead of rejecting them outright, like they used to. This is probably a pointless argument on my part, since most of the people here think the listed platforms are good things, and the donkeys aren't going far enough.

adrian i'm going to again re-itterate that no matter what anyone (the dems included) like to harp, they are nowhere near a socialist party.

I'll also harp in by saying you're conversing with someone with a political science degree who hasn't be socialised by the US custom of labellign anything slightly left wing as socialist / commie / liberal and anything right wing as fascist.

What is "slightly left wing" about wanting free universal health care, free universal education, responsibility free welfare, and no penalties for breaching our borders when the FAR left wing wants those things too?

Like I said, they haven't gotten the hammer and sickle flags out of storage and started sending the landlords to Siberia, but ideologically, they're about two steps behind.

Meanwhile, the Republicans want to listen in on our phone calls, keep us from taking shampoo on a plane, hold us without bail or attorneys indefinitely, and tell us who we can and can't marry. What's scary about that is they took the "security" programs straight from the Clinton shelf, and I dread to see when 4 years of President Hillary and Speaker Pelosi will do with the already-in-place Patriot Act.

Adrian