I'm sure you can find lots of websites that say differently. However factcheck.org is a nonprofit, bipartisan group.
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The website you are quoting has the names of known right wing (or Republican) supporters. It's actual name is "Conservative Issues, Republican Politics, News, Presidential Candidates, Campaigns, Town Hall Debates, Iraq War, Blogs, Political Cartoons ... " This does not give it any credibility whatsoever as a non-partisan site and a source of FACTS not innuendo.

Not to mention that the date on your article is April 17th and the date on the one I posted is October 10. Just maybe it's a bit more up to date.

Totally agree with you. Ayers,Rev. Wright are people he associates with who hate our country and spread hate. If they hate it so much, they can leave. Now Obama may not be like them totally, but birds of a feather flock together.

Well, Kathleen, I just found out that the Annenberg Foundation had Obama on their board for many years and he disbursed 60 million dollars of their funds every year. That is a conflict of interest.

Obama was on that board before he ever took office. What does that have to do with Adrian claiming that he and Bill Ayers were/are best friends. That was one of the sites I checked to refute that comment. Snopes is another:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ayers.asp

Brooke, I know voting is not compulsory in the States [it is here], but can you vote 'informal' at your elections?

S.

What I don't understand is that Americans still have their doubts on who to vote for.
I mean, come on, a 72 year old guy (how can he have a fresh look on life with that age) and when he dies or can't be president anymore the even more crap Palin will become president. Voting for McCain will be a major downgrade.

I salute you,
Thunderstrucker

A 72 year old guy, with a history of skin cancer, and a massive growth on his left cheek in plain sight.

Did anyone else find McCain's "he's a decent man. We just happen to disagree" moment very strange to watch?

It really seemed like it'd finally dawned on him what happens in reality when a campaign implies it's opponent is a terrorist. For a brief moment he came accross genuinely ashamed.

Didn't stop him from saying he'd whip Obama's "you know what" in the 3rd debate...


Ponrauil

That's not a growth. He was beaten in a POW camp for 5 yrs. That's what Vietnam did to him.:rolleyes:

And Obama will be worse.:rolleyes:

Why? You don't state facts to backup your argument. I'd also like to respond to your comment from a different thread:

Your response was:

The first 6 of the past 8 years (and 2 years previously for a total of eight) BOTH houses of congress (the Senate and the House of Representatives) have had a Republican majority.

This links to all the US Congresses in history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_Congresses

106th Congress Jan 1999 - Jan 2001 (last 2 years of Clinton's Presidency) Both houses have Republican majority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/106th_U...tates_Congress

107th Congress Jan 2001 - Jan 2003 Both houses have Republican majority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/107th_U...tates_Congress

108th Congress Jan 2003 - Jan 2005 Both Houses have Republican majority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108th_U...tates_Congress

109th Congress Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 Both Houses have Republican majority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/109th_U...tates_Congress

110th Congress Jan 2007 - Jan 2009 (in progress) Both houses have Democratic majority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/110th_U...tates_Congress

God knows there is enough blame to go around but I am a stickler for trying to get the facts straight rather than an emotional response.

I am sorry mate. But are you blind?
You ever saw an interview with Sarah Palin? You will laugh your ass off. Especially when she gets questions about foreign politics.

McCain and Palin are just Laurel and Hardy to me. They bring excitement in the campaign and still I pity the people who still would vote for a McCain, vote for another replubican. You must be either blind or not willing to see the truth.

I salute you,
Thunderstrucker

Well yesterday was the closest thing to a debate we've seen so far. Except for the childish part about who had been the meanest to the other.

But the result is the same imo, McCain didn't manage to make Obama look bad, and even less to make his plans look good. And the TV format is tough on McCain, really tough. He looked old and grumpy when Obama was calm and brushed every single attack with a clear explanation.


Ponrauil

Well, I didn't want to get into a whole big thing, but Obama might be a nice person. I just don't agree with his philosophies. I don't want my taxes raised through the roof, we're being killed by our taxes. I want all the spending stopped especially all the pork barrel crap. If I don't have the money to pay for something, I don't buy it. I wish they would balance their checkbook like I do, but they don't. They just spend,spend,spend. The other thing is I don't care for the people he associates himself with. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Another saying, birds of a feather, flock together. I also don't think he has enough experience to be president. He wasn't even a senator very l ong. The economy crap going on I feel is the fault of the people I mentioned above. In 2005, the repubs wanted Fannie and Freddie checked and audited. the Dems said everything was fine and voted no. Then when they got in power, all hell broke loose. They told banks to give mortgages out without even downpayments or jobs, or money saved etc. Franks,Reid, Pelosi,Dodd and all these corrupt CEo's created the mess we have today. There's plenty blame to go around, but these are the worst. That's just my opinion,Which we have the right to have. I don't like the direction left liberals have toward socialism.

Obama is only raising taxes to people that make over 250,000 a year. So 95% of america will not see an increase in taxes. You know Mccain kept saying last night that obama wants to raise taxes, but obama wants to raise the taxes on the fiflthy rich, come on they could afford to pay higher taxes. Obama mentions names like Warren Buffet, these people can afford to pay higher taxes, it's not going to put a hole in their pockets. It is simply greed for those rich people that don't want to pay higher taxes. The ones that support Obama raising taxes and that are also rich know that they can afford to pay the taxes and don't mind it names like JBJ, Bruce etc......

I heard and saw that replubicans already made bumperstickers with 'Paling, VP in 2012'.
they are starting to think 'Let Obama be president to clean up the mess then we come back when all shit it sorted for us'

Is this like some sort of performance art piece?

oh shit i see the "don't have a clue wtf a socialist is" crowd have discovered jovitalk.

i feared the day this would happen.

I like Joe the plumber :D

Dawn

Whilst it's hard to resist the temptation to get snippy at redneck idiots, today it was reported fewer than 50% of british kids scored 5 A* to C GCSEs that included maths and english. How ****ing shaming.

Seriously, how the hell do people get by with that standard of education? I'm definitely slowing down in my old age and have forgotten more than I remember, but I couldn't have paid more for a better schooling and I find it a struggle to get by more often than not.

Is there comfort in ignorance?

oh most certainly mate.

i went on holiday with a guy one time and in those 2 weeks there was the G8 riots at gleneagles, the 7/7 london bombings, the mendes shooting and live aid 20.

i tried to keep up with as much of this stuff as possible via the papers and news in the hotel and my friend turned to me and said literally: you know what, i'm glad i don't know anything about any of this because it means i don't need to worry about it or keep track of things.



i was gobsmacked.

Jim, if you're ever in Birmingham, we'll have a drink.

a guy who earns £125 grand a year that's whinging about paying more taxes... not getting on board with that dude.

apparently the guy's not even registered to vote :S

oh and mccain mentioned something about having soldiers being able to go into teaching without any formal teacher training once they've served their terms.

the man is a clown and is just lucky his running mate is an even bigger joke as it deflects attention from him.

According to my copy of the dictionary, socialism is government ownership of the means of production and distribution.

Obama may not be a socialist, but he's certainly a redistributionist, and that's equally ****ing evil. Success should not be punished with taxation.

And McCain's talk about soldiers teaching without training = retarded.

Reading this I'm reminded why I don't watch the debates: The last time I did, I spent 2 hours making snide comments and pantomiming giving the candidate's heads a 180 twist.

Jericho is much more patriotic and entertaining, and it's easier on the bloodpressure.

Adrian

the problem with this train of thbought adrian is that we live in a society and that means doing our bit to help each other out whether that be refraining from raping and murdering each other or helping those less fortunate than us.

i've worked ever since i was 13 except for a 2 week hiatus and i make not bad money teaching now but i still realise that at the end of the day EVERYONE is better off if we all pull together and do as much as possible to help each other.

if a mate is short of money do you say actually i've earned this so you can earn your own or do you say here's a bung pal just get it to me when you can?...

I'm really interested to hear his answer on that one too.

I'm almost positive it'll be about having the freedom of choice whether to lend your mate money or not, rather than having it forceably taken from you. Which, fundamentally is a fair point, freedom of choice is important. However, I agree with what Jim said about society pulling together to help out those less fortunate ... without redistribution of wealth, they'd be guaranteed pretty much no freedom of choice, whereas those who are taxed are only surrendering part of their freedom of choice of what to do with their money

on another board i post on someone went on a rant about how it should be upto him whether he wants to fritter his money away on harley's and designer jeans (ironically both twatish and token needless branded materialist items)

i dunno about you guys but i manage to pay taxes and also have a bunch of cash left to fritter away on needless shit like overpriced bikes and bits of denim...


we pool our resources to pay for streetlights, the cops, the fire brigade and we don't turn round and say you don't pay taxes so the cops aren't coming when you get robbed so i really don't think we're at liberty to say we're not going to help you out if you lose your job or you get sick and can't work.

adrian i wonder what you're thoughts are on the fact that it's VERY well documented in sociological studies that crime is mainly the result of poor socioeconomic circumstances. since you're an advocate of gun rights and protecting ones liberty etc... don't you think providing less opportunity for criminality to exist is a good idea?

Has anyone ever seen Monty Python"s Life of Brian and the "what have the Romans done for us?" speech. They go on to mention the aqueduct, sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, and they brought peace by having public order (ie. the police). Needless to say it turned out there were many thing the Romans had done for Britain. Well in our day all those things are available because we pay taxes. And if none of us want to pay taxes, noone would have any of those advantages.

On a similar subject in an article in the Times Thomas Friedman:

I only wish she (Sarah Palin) had been asked: "Governor Palin, if paying taxes is not considered patriotic in your neighborhood, who is going to pay for the body armor that will protect your son in Iraq? Who is going to pay for the bailout you endorsed? If it isn't from tax revenues, there are only two ways to pay for those big projects — printing more money or borrowing more money. Do you think borrowing money from China is more patriotic than raising it in taxes from Americans?" That is not putting America first. That is selling America first.

Sorry, I grew up in a very middle-class family in a very middle-class suburb of Minneapolis, and my parents taught me that paying taxes, while certainly no fun, was how we paid for the police and the Army, our public universities and local schools, scientific research and Medicare for the elderly. No one said it better than Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization."
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I'm not fond of all taxes myself but why are they considered evil by so many? I like the civilization and society I get in return.

that's a great article kathleen.

i'd also chime in and say if we didn't pay taxes how would the selfless bastions of academia such as myself get our money from?

private education is all well and good in theory but you'd be surprised how many dumb****s i know who had a fortune spent on their education because their parents didn't want them going to mainstream schools. i could go into the ins and outs of why this happens but to put it simply, if mr and mrs S are paying a school £15,000 a year for little joey's teaching, he is going to do as well as mr and mrs S expect even if it means the teachers babysitting and doing most of the work for little joey...

then little joey gets into university where it's sink or swim and you know what, little joey ain't doing so well whereas those in public education who didn't have the opportunity for the best equipment in classrooms and the newest textbooks are used to having to work off their own steam...

make of that what you will but i'm sure i'm not the only person with a degree who has noticed how many private pupils do ridiculously well with regards to high school attainment then drop out within a few months of getting to uni because they can't hack it.

In the same vein, here is something I brought before (or maybe it was Kathleen?):

"Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican

by John Gray

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”."


Ponrauil

Oh that's excellent Aure - I have seen that in various forms before but I didn't post it. As I said - I can bitch about taxes with the best of them - but ultimately it's an underpinning of my society that I would not be willing to eliminate.

Imagine if a fire breaks out in your house and you can't afford to have the fire department (now paid for by taxes) come to put it out. Or if your neighbor dumped raw sewage in their backyard because they couldn't afford the hookup to the public sewer. Or if the cops (or the ambulance) wouldn't come to help if you couldn't pay them. I shudder to think what the society would be like.

Why do people never think of these things when they bitch about the "tax and spend" democrats.

That's what LAW is for. Law is perfectly acceptable for telling people not to rape and murder each other. It is not an acceptable use of the force of law to attempt (and that's all you're going to be able to do) to equalize everyone's station in life.

I'm happy that you've developed a generous world view. Please don't force it on me.

Of course I'd help someone out. It's my choice. Nobody in government is saying "help them out or we'll arrest you."

Since Jan. 1st, I've made $7000, which is pretty shitty money for me. I gave up the opportunity to make $5000 to advance my education over the summer. $4000 of that was spent on investments, a quarter of which I lost in this recent stock market debacle. And you know what, I'm still planning on making my annual donation to the Christmas book drive. Usually the amount I donate is a drop in my financial bucket, this year though, it's well over a tenth of what I've made this year. I'm plenty charitable on my own, and would be even more so if people in Congress would leave my money alone.

Streetlights, cops, fire department are all usually state and local entities, and are for general use. I have no problem paying reasonable taxes for such things. Taxation for post offices, roads, a military, patents, etc. is provided for in the US Constitution and is perfectly reasonable. Taking money from those who have more and giving it out, no strings attached to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who show up with their hand out is no reasonable and is not provided for in our highest law.

It is not hard to put on a button-up shirt, comb your hair, and find higher-than-minimum wage job with opportunities for advancement. My godfather started off on the canning line at Green Giant Canning and ended up the VP. My dad put himself through college on his own dime working that same canning line, and is now a teacher supporting a one-income family. My boss flunked out of his first college, put himself through the second, and is now a retail manager making very good money. One of my friends at work put herself through under grad college, and is currently going through grad school while working full time - doing such a good job that she got a promotion. I can find you a dozen more stories like that every time I go into work.

If someone is physically capable of working, they can support themselves. It's not going to be a lot of fun, and it's probably not going to get them onto an episode of MTV's Cribs, but they can do it. I and the rest of the working population should not be forced by law to support other people's laziness and mistakes and poor financial decisions.

Adrian

PS I'm not going to be able to debate this one for a while. I'm working nearly 60 hours in the next 5 days.

Ahh isn't this sweet? The guy is obviously a good writer. Just like the radio host in his story.

I don't post in this thread usually as it's hard for me to find the english words to talk about that.

But this story of Joe the plumber is .... excellent !!! can't believe it's true !!!
Politic in France is scary but as usual it's much worse in the US !!! :o

Colin Powell endorses Obama. Comes a bit as a surprise to me. I think this topic could just as well be closed now. Unless Barack Obama screws up badly ( I can't even imagine how he could do that) he is most probably going to win. And I think he deserves it. The republicans played disgustingly dirty this time and John McCain is simply not a strong enough candidate.

I was really skeptical about Obama. I must say, I wouldn't have though he'd make it. But he will. I just hope he gets some good economic advisers. Preferably some from Heritage or even better, some from the CATO institute :P

Saw this on a NJ site I visit often... Dawn

Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan.

During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia, next Hyderabad in India, three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family. My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they were in college.

When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York. It is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap to say the least! Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia, he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000 a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New York.

By 'chance' he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria, and a real estate developer in Chicago. Rezko has been convicted of fraud and bribery this year. Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the Decade' by the Arab-American Business and Professional Association'. About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School. Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School? Where did he get the money for Law School? More student loans?

After Law school, he went back to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? They represented 'Rezar' which is Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago. In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race.

In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwood District of Chicago for $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student Loans - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day, Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price. The London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko.

Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy?

On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley, advisor to Obama, was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with 'Hamas', which controls Gaza and is connected with Iran. This past week, buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is elected, and he will 'Take care of things'.

Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that were born in Pakistan? They are in charge of all those “small” Internet campaign contributions for Obama. Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East?

And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, 'My Muslim faith'. When questioned, 'he made a mistake'. Some mistake

All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama;Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008;The Times May 10, 2008.

Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my own, Why haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the press been reporting this? A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - 'Beware of the enemy from within'!!!

Ken Morrow

You and me both. The next four years may even be scarier than the past eight. Time will tell....