Imo taking it as literally as that is as dishonest as adding words he never said. He just gave one example of who qualifies as middle class in his and Obama's plan.



Ponrauil

That's what people thought of NJ's Corzine. He was going to be the savior. He's made a mess of Jersey and a terrible governor. He hasn't improved it at all. He tries raising our taxes every chance he gets,tolls etc. His ratings went down rather quickly. All talk and no action, too bad people didn't see through all his rheteric. obama will be the same.

What makes you think Obama will be the same?

i'd at lkeast give the guy the benefit of the doubt because he's got a better chance of turning things around than bush mkIII

So how are you feeling at this stage? What's the best you dare hope for? How confident are you that will happen?

I'm not confidant at all. I dare hope that Obama wins but I'm not sure that will happen. I think that there are too many American that are racist at heart and simply will not actually vote for him whn push comes to shove.

No arguments here BTW - I am not saying that everyone who is for McCain is racist. I just think that racism is still pervasive in our society - though perhaps not as much as it used to be. I do think if Obama does get elected, and if he does a halfway decent job, it will go a long way to erasing some of the racism out there. Once people get used to seeing someone black in a position of power and authority - it might become more commonplace.

I feel like neither of them are worthy candidates to deal witht eh current problems.. and I would still vote for Hilary..

Bruce has just been on at Ohio event for Obama...Bruce gave Obama a good plug... he sang but I couldnt hear it as some news reporter was talking all over him :rolleyes:

Dawn

He's a democrat. Plain and simple, All democrats want Big Government. They want the government to pay for everything. Who is going to have to pay for all that? We are when they raise everyone's taxes. They want their hands in everyone's pockets. We work hard for our money and don't want to pay for every program imagineable. The more money we make, they want to take. I'm all for paying what is necessary,police, firemen, teachers,things that is truly needed. People can't expect to sit home and do nothing while the gov. pays for everything. It's not a racist issue. I don't care what color or gender they are. As long as they curb spending, taxing, wasting, all our hard earned money.

That's not a sweeping generalization at all.

Any proof that ALL democrats want this?

How about their voting record? I'll admit the Republicans haven't been great in that respect, but they've been BETTER.

A vote for BHO at this point is a vote for a guy who's voiced support for reinstituting the draft, so I'm hoping John McCain can pull off a win. If he can't, I'm hoping BHO does a horrible job and turns America against his party. I'm hoping for EPIC failure from the left, like average person thinking "they shouldn't command a potato peeler much less a nation" failure.

Instead, I think BHO will win, and things will get slowly worse, and people will keep clamoring for more of the problem, instead of a solution.

Adrian

What does a vote for McCain mean at this stage Oh Knowing One?

A vote for a "lesser evil" as you have put it so many times is just a vote made in fear. If that's your idea of doing the right thing so be it, but no forward progress has ever been made in fear.

I'm tired of all your "BHO" posts like you just find yourself so smart. You are 22 years old and I'm sure you'll notice in some time that you do NOT know how everything works like you pretend you do. Your remarks here in this thread have only shown others exactly what they DON'T want in office and why so many are quick to write off Americans as close-minded "I'm better than you" bigots.

Yes, McCain is the "lesser evil." On the other hand, his party squares with my beliefs a lot better than BHO's. What, I should vote for "change" I don't believe in just because it's a different party? How much sense would that make?

You're tired of all my BHO posts? Tough. There's another amendment in place in this country that I'm extremely fond of - the First. If you don't like it, there are plenty of places that lack it.

You really should play "you'll learn in time, you young whippersnapper" card when you're MORE than 3 years older than me. Comes across much more convincing at about 10 or 20 years older. Just a suggestion. As if age invalidates free speech. Would you be saying that to a BHO supporter? I think not.

As far as your veiled insinuation that I'm a closed-minded bigot, go digging around in the first few pages of this forum. I've blasted the Republican party on many an occasion. I am closed-minded: To big, unconstitutional government from EITHER party.

And I'm not a bigot, I'd be voting for Condi if she were the nominee. If the Rs would run James Earl Jones, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat (from what I've heard about him).

Adrian

He never said you shouldn't be allowed speak your mind, did he? :roll:

Maybe you should read the amendment again to see that it also allows him to say he's tired of your posts and the tone you use.


Ponrauil

I don't agree with McCain on several issues, doesn't mean I'm going to go around disrespecting him every chance I get. That's the difference. I'd be aganist anyone making such personal atacks on McCain as well. As a 72 year old white man with a "regular" middle name and heritage, he doesn't seem to be such an easy target however. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees how smug and self-righteous you come off in your posts.

I never said that you should vote for Obama. I merely said that a vote should never be cast out of fear. For a person that believes he understands the constitution so well, I'd assume you'd be able to understand the meaning behind a post on a message board.

I have mentioned this before myself. Over the past 18 months (to 2 years) of this campaign I have received hundreds of e-mails spouting filth about Obama (and before Obama, Hilary Clinton).

In all that time I have have never seen that kind of hate e-mail about McCain. I receive e-mail about not voting for him, but that is accompanied by reasoned arguments that you may or may not agree with. No one has ever suggested that I would be an idiot if I voted for McCain. Nor have they said that our entire country will be ruined if he gets elected.

The Republicans have spread hate far and wide during this election. I found this quote in the news today and it summarizes my feelings about this election and the behavior of the two parties.
______________________________________

Instead, the Republican party that’s left after the election, will be the party that attends Sarah Palin’s rallies, where crowds chant “Vote McCain, not Hussein!” It will be the party of Saxby Chambliss, the senator from Georgia, who, observing large-scale early voting by African-Americans, warns his supporters that “the other folks are voting.” It will be the party that harbors menacing fantasies about Barack Obama’s Marxist — or was that Islamic? — roots.

Entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/03/op...rugman.html?em

good post kathleen. this election is an anomaly in that a black man is quite possibly going to become the most powerful person in the country but on the other hand it's led to alot of simmering racism being brought to the surface as a result which had been kept under wraps until now.

Even before that this still flabbergasts me:

Most of the people if not everyone agrees the last eight years have been a total disaster. McCain supported 90% of what Bush did. He has shown nothing of what he plans to do in Iraq or Afghanistan that could be different from Bush. Same about the economy. He, and he ALONE, also appointed as VP, and therefore potential first in command, someone with no experience or knowledge or support in her own party. Yet McCain is still better than Obama for some because Obama... might raise taxes even if he plans to actually cut them.

How does that process?

The same people put Bush & Clinton on the same level of dishonesty when Clinton lied about getting a blowjob and Bush lied to declare a war.

Relativity anyone?


Ponrauil

Didn't McCain vote for Bush' bail out package?

Whatever your fundamental belief's the fact that the last president carrying out those beliefs now has a 20% approval rating says quite a lot. And I think voting for a belief is not always the right thing to do, especially when McCain agreed with him 90% of the time.

BHO is going to reduce taxes for the people that need it to help stimulate the economy and give people that bit more comfort. He is not reducing it only for people that sit at home and is proposing to make it easier for those that work hard. Those above £250k already have an expontential earning potential.

John McCain supported the war in Iraq who's costs are quoted at $1trillion. Wastfeul spending?. Despite all of his supposed foreign policy experience he made a fundamentally bad decision which the laymen sitting at home could see from a mile off.

BHO is looking to invest in the energy sector that will create jobs. McCain wants to drill in Alaska which means the publicly owned land will result in companies paying that money back to Alaskans (i.e. Socialism).

If it is broken, fix it. Don't carry on with the same tried and tested and ultimately unsuccessful policies.

And the wish that BHO gets in and screws the country up (as per Adrian) seems somewhat a wish for their beliefs to be right as opposed to support for your country.

The Republicans have become a far right joke of a party. The McCain of two years ago before he sold out to Bush would have been a far better prospect. He flip flops, has no substance in his policies and is relying on the fear of 'Liberals', 'Socialism' and change in order to achieve the top job.

And one final thing - McCain bankrupted his presidential nomination campaign. Obama has run a hugely successful compaign (McCain's has been poor). This tells you a lot about their leadership style.

Oh, and I didnt even mention Sarah Palin.

Thanks Mike. For as pro-American as Adrian claims he is, comments like this show he either has no idea what that means or he really is just concerned with himself and not others.

I absolutely agree with you. He should voice his opinions whenever he wants. I'm not going to stop voicing mine just because he's "tired" of me.

You're right, I was wrong. My first wish is that he's going to return our nation to Constitutional Republic it was founded to be, with the small government guaranteed to us in our highest law. Failing that, I hope people get fed up with him. Which do you think is more likely to happen?

Adrian

From the Economist article you posted yourself.

McCain is better than Obama. The problem is not McCain, but freakin retarded Republican voters. McCain was not very popular with the Republican voters, as our friend Adrian has made clear so many times. He had to appeal to the ultra-conservatives so this is what his strategy focused on. People now put him in the same pot as Bush, but this is just wrong. As I said before, I am very disappointed by McCain's campaign and truly believe that Obama deserves to win (judging the campaigns alone). It's however not McCain's fault, but that of the Republican voters. And I definitely hope that Obama will open people's minds a bit. For he may not be the most capable of leaders, he surely is inspiring. And some of that "inspiration" would not hurt in certain states.

I don't see how making sure to type "BHO" whenever you refer to Obama is you voicing your opinion. It's just not needed is all.

It's impossible to judge a man who isn't even in office. Give him time and IF he messes things up, make the claims then. Right now, anyone saying all these negative things are just being negative for the sake of it.

let's see some demoracy in action america.

tis election day as far as we're concerned on this side of the pond so let's see you embrace the democracy you all regard so highly, get out there and fix what has been systematically broken over the past 8 years :thu:

If the other party wins
 

It will take more than another 8 years of someone else to fix what has been done to this country. There was an article today saying "So Little Time, So Much Damage" referring to all the changes that are being made in Bush's last 77 days in office.
______________________________
President Bush’s aides have been scrambling to change rules and regulations on the environment, civil liberties and abortion rights, among others — few for the good. Most presidents put on a last-minute policy stamp, but in Mr. Bush’s case it is more like a wrecking ball. We fear it could take months, or years, for the next president to identify and then undo all of the damage.
______________________________

Entire article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/op...em&oref=slogin

Jesus Kathleen. I wasn't aware that any of this would be possible. Am I wrong or could the democratic congress still knock down any of these "changes"?

God help us...

One American who participated in democracy checking in. Still clinging bitterly to my religion, guns, and money. :D Y'all can keep the change.

Kathleen:That is a particularly disturbing piece. George Bush should be strung up with a few other choice politicians for what he's done to this country. That said, it is just an opinion piece, and I didn't see any evidence offered to back up the assertions offered.

Adrian

So you voted for Barr? Was he in the ballot in your area?


Ponrauil

It really seems from this post (and many previous) that you genuinely dislike the Republican administration and believe McCain offers little change based on your own experience.

Yet with the Democrats your fear is of the unknown and having swallowed every lie you've ever been told.

You joke about clinging bitterly to your religion, guns and money yet that is exactly what you are doing.

Tonight's the Night (great song btw), don't **** this up, America.

A vote not opposing BHO is a vote for a guy who's stated it's his goal to bring back the draft. I voted for McCain.

Nah, Democrats have NEVER stated that they want "spread the wealth around" or ban guns or do anything else I oppose. Gotta be another party...

Damn straight that's what I'm doing. I'm very bitter towards ANYONE R or D who wants to take anything of mine, or wants to interfere in my life.

Adrian

Ive got the day off work tomorrow , got champagne in the fridge.
Go Obama !!! :D

Yeah - it was disturbing to me too. I'm aware that it's an op-ed article but you can be sure that I'll be checking to see if any of the info included becomes (or is) fact.

It's the fact that to you Obama embodies the worst aspects of all democrats, in direct contradiction to the fact.

And in your choosing the worst possible interpretation of every argument, again in direct contradiction to the fact.

Well, let's see. Back in 2000, Clinton created just as much or worse havoc before he left. Apparently, he screwed up all the computers of all depts, deleted many files, and pardoned the worst crimimals that were friends of his. He did nothing to make the transition go smoothly.

And of course this and many other articles are from the most left wing liberal biased papers like the NY trash, oops I mean Times. Don't believe everything you read in that rag paper.

Division by 0. Your post does not compute. He's said he wants to do all the things I mentioned. There's no contradiction there. He said it.

Adrian

right i'm off to bed guys. there better be a smug looking black dude all over bbc news 24 when i turn the telly on tomorrow morning

Go go Obama!

Will New Jersey vote for Obama? I think so. :)

Really??? And I thought he did this: