If Richie's only contribution to Bon Jovi had been the chorus of Prayer, he would have been utmost instrumental in the band's success. The quantity of the material does zero to prove he's the worse artist. You cannot quantify artistic merit, anyway, plus - I've written albums' worth of material on my own as well, and watch me not being a millionaire.

Also, the one hit song JBJ did on his - Aldo Nova later contended he had a hand in writing that and was just never credited.

Art is logic? Really? You are aware how artistic expression works? It's usually the most pure and most immediate when it is NOT flitered. I appreciate working on music and the craft, but to say that art is logic is really quite the bold statement.

Follow the conversation. You said art is not math. I said logic is (math). Also, you are underestimating how much of life is mathematic.

I have no musical talent, but I went through 6 levels of piano in one year because I had good math and visual spatial skills. They encourage arts in school because they inevitability increase academic skills.

Jon wrote Always, Living in Sin, and Bed of Roses alone— all hits. He wrote half of KTF alone and half of Crush alone along with majority of his solo albums and many other band recordings.

Excuse me for stubbornly applying logic. I’m not changing. I have little tolerance for statements supported by feelings/guesses/desire to believe.

Aldo Nova said that he made riff for blaze not lyrics or melody.

No. He said that he made famous riff for that song and he didn't even credited for it. He didn't mention that he worked on lyrics or melody

Simple math has nothing to do with it. You're comparing apples to oranges. Richie's preference for collaboration has nothing to do with his skill as a songwriter or what his collaborative contributions have meant to Bon Jovi. Writing songs alone doesn't necessarily mean that a person is a better songwriter or contributes more to the songwriting process than someone who prefers writing with others. It's a different skill set.

Using your logic, Jayne Torvill couldn't have been as good at ice skating as Dorothy Hamill because Dorothy skated alone and Jayne skated with Chistopher Dean. But they're both still Gold Medalists. It's kinda like saying Jon must not be as good as Paul McCartney, because 99% of Jon's success has been with a band while Paul has experienced equal success in a band and on his own.


As far as I know, Richie never claimed to be the genius behind all of anything. He made a comment about writing the 5 hits on NJ (which is true), but he never made any claims about writing any of the Bon Jovi songs by himself, except in the eyes of those who chose to interpret his comments that way. And those same people still refuse to acknowledge that it's no different for Richie to say he wrote songs that he co-wrote than it is for Jon or David to say the exact same thing.

I also don't recall Richie saying he got ****ed out of anything in any of the comments he made (and I followed them all pretty damn carefully). It may be just another assumption ppl made - once again because of their attitudes toward Richie and what they think his attitude is towards Bon Jovi. If anyone wants to show me where he actually said any of that, or even implied it (outside of their own inferences), I'd be happy to see it.

Regardless of who played on the songs, Jon wrote BOR and Always which are two massive ones.

Jon has said numerous times that collaboration is truly collaboration with a few exceptions where he got specific. I’m not taking away Richie’s contribution to the songs he actually co-wrote, but those fans who like to claim he’s the driving force of brilliance of the band are denying Jon’s contributions to collaboration. If Jon can write songs on his own, no one has to lead him by the balls to do his part. Even people who were all excited about those heavy riffs Richie supposedly came iup with on the Bounce CD had to reevaluate when Jon got specific about writing and said he created those riffs.

I repeat. I not taking away Richie’s credit on collaboration. Stop taking away Jon’s because it fits a vision you prefer.

Songwriting includes riffs. Ask Jimmy Page.

I seriously doubt that I do, thank you very much.

Recreating is not the same as creating.

What does any of this do to prove artistic merit? I'll give you hit singles proving commercial appeal (although - see below), but what does writing "half the album" (=quantity) have to do with quality? Quality is subjective. He's a more prolific writer - exactly what I said. Doesn't mean he's a better one.

He's a more succesful one as far as solo-written songs in the context of BJ the band go, sure, but we don't know if any song Richie wrote on his own in the context of BJ would ever be credited to just him. I seriously doubt it. I'll Be There For You came, for all we know, mainly from Richie. And the one solo hit JBJ had faced allegations of an uncredited co-write. And of course the lead singer's solo stuff, especially when people often assume BJ the band are JBJ the solo artist, is gonna have an easier time selling than the guitar players solo record. Mick Jagger's solo stuff also sold better than Keith Richards.

Doesn't "prove" he's a better writer. Superstar songwriter Desmond Child had Richie guest & co-write on his solo album, not Jon.

So much for logic.

If you listen to Jon’s interview from CHUM FM from December 1990, you hear his version of how IBTFY was written. The only reason people think Richie is a primary songwriter on that song is he sang it sometimes. Any Bon Jovi song he sang was a collaboration. He was singing Bon Jovi songs because anyone who saw the band when his solo work was performed (in the USA) saw mass exodus to the beer stands and bathrooms.

Also, if you are creating a song, you have to have an innate understanding of timing, rhythm, meter (math). It does not mean you have to understand how to work it on paper. If you’re painting a picture, you have to understand visual perspectives (math).

Superstar songwriter Stevie Nicks asked specifically for Jon to write a song for her greatest hits (which he did with Billy Falcon) so your about Desmond is... pointless in the big picture.

If you cannot understand that my issue is with people dismissing Jon in the collaboration process to play the poor abused genius guitarist held back by the big bad CEO, you just don’t get it. It has no merit. There are not enough solo written songs by Richie to compare his capabilities as a lone writer to Jon’s.

And, no, guitar solos are not going to earn you a writing credit. My favorite guitarist has been called in to play on numerous songs/singles and had not gotten writing credits. He’s interpreting what is already there. Adding to or changing the style of a song is not writing the song.

Any fan who denies Jon's contributions is as blind and narrow-minded as the ones who think the band's success starts and ends with Jon. But that said, just because someone gives Richie credit for something doesn't necessarily mean they're taking anything away from Jon. Sometimes they're just trying to give Richie the credit he deserves, too.

It took the whole band to get them the success they had. I don't know anyone who thinks the band would have enjoyed the success they achieved without Jon. But there are a lot of fans who think that Jon would have been just as successful with any group of hired guns and that everybody else in the band would be nobody if it weren't for Jon; and that's when I, personally, call bullshit. Because I don't think any of them, Jon and Richie included, would have reached the heights they did without the other four. Plus the help of a lot of other people, including Cousin Tony and Doc McGhee.

So when you start talking about Richie fans as if we're all the same and saying they deny Jon's contributions, kindly count me out.

I’m not pinpointing any individual fans, but a pervasive attitude observed over the past 30 years.

Becky, I work with statistics on university level and have been playing and writing music since my teenage years. Please don't lecture me about the connections between math and music, especially if you yourself admitted you don't know much about music. You also need to know how to calculate distance to catch a pass, but most sports players don't exactly grind away at math.

And Desmond sure is the more in demand songwriter for other people - strictly as a songwriter for hire - than Stevie Nicks is.

Plus if you don't know the difference between a riff and a solo, you should not talk about songwriting and credit at all.

Well, if you want to get in a horn tooting contest, I’m pretty well informed in how the brain makes connections. Also, I deal with statistics daily in my line of work. I also have an understanding of music because I studied theory, etc. What I do not have is natural ability. I cannot sing. I cannot play by ear.

But now we’re really just having a pissing contest and coming across as major A’s.

You still can’t make a valid assertion that Richie is a “better” songwriter because there aren’t enough examples of individually written material to compare the two. There is no hard evidence.

What I think we agree on is that, at one point, they WERE a great team. They are not a team anymore. What is left for us to do but get over it?

Jon is the one with the mic. Almost everything we've heard from day one is "his version". I've heard at least 3 of "his version"s about how Hey, God came to be. Songwriters sometimes make up backstories about how and why songs are written because they know it's gonna come up in interviews. It ain't necessarily so just because Jon said it. I'm sorry: but that's just a fact. Yet somehow his words are the only ones that don't require confirmation.

The reason I think Richie is the primary contributor on IBTFY has nothing to do with him singing it in BJ shows. It's because there are only a handful of Bon Jovi songs that he sings, repeatedly, in his solo shows and IBTFY is one of them: LOAP, Wanted, IML, TD, Bad Medicine, Never Say Goodbye, and he added The Distance on his last tour, if I'm not mistaken. Somebody asked him in an interview what his favorite line was that he'd written and he said that probably it would be "I guess this time you're really leaving, I heard your suitcase say good-bye". We know that he was the one who had the idea for a song about prayer, from both him and Jon, and that Jon didn't want to include LOAP until Richie and Des convinced him, Jon's words. Richie sang the demo on NSG and he guides Jon through the melody on the demo for WDOA; Jon said he had to negotiate with Richie to get the Frankie line in IML, both Jon and Richie tell the story of doing the Fuji film promo when Richie came up with the idea for Bad Medicine, and around the time everybody was bitching about Richie "covering" BJ songs in his solo shows, shortly after he left, he introduced TD by saying, "I know which ones are mine and which ones are his" which told me he was the primary on TD. None of those points taken on its own seems significant, but taken as a whole, there's enough right there, without doing a stylistic comparison, to convince me that the songs Richie does in his solo shows are the ones he had the most input into and feels most connected to. And that may also be why he sang the songs he did in the BJ shows. You, yourself, have said that the songs on Richie's solo albums aren't that much of a departure from Bon Jovi. Have you ever considered that maybe there's a good reason for that? That maybe he had more to do with some of the Bon Jovi songs than some people want to give him credit for?

That's not taking anything away from Jon, collaboratively or individually. Just saying that Richie may have made a significant contribution, as well.

I am sometimes kinda surprised if the core guitar idea of a song came - at least according to him or band sources - from Jon. I think the New Jersey Deluxe Edition states that Jon had the chord progression for Born To Be My Baby, and Richie then came up with the idea for the title (I wonder what Desmond did...), and I think in his interview with Ultimate Guitar, Jon says he had the basic structure for Make A Memory (chords, lyrical idea, basic melody) and Richie and Desmond just helped out with the lyrics and arrangement.

Bon Jovi is one of the few bands that only gives credit to his band as composer / songwriter if they has put some words there. But not all bands work like that. A lot of them credit their members for the simple idea of having an intro or a guitar solo.

I give the example of Metallica:
-Robert Trujillo was credited in ManUNkind simply because he made the intro of the beginning that lasts 30 seconds.
-Kirk Hammet was credited by the riff of Enter Sandman and the guitar solo of Unforgiven.
-Jason Newted was credited by the bass melody in My Friend Of Misery.

Jon will only give you the credit if you put words in his songs, but not in the rest, he does it like that, but that is not the norm, in general, many bands credit their members for their contribution in the song.

That's why I can not believe that Dry County is not accredited Richie Sambora or all band. Very strange but that's how things are done in BJ.

You don’t have to browbeat me with the fact that Richie is a collaborator.

None of us were in the room when any songs were written. I pay more attention to Jon, so it’s not a matter of comparing who said what. Yet it’s hypocritical for anyone who likes to believe Richie’s words should not be questioned, like ever, to say I simply don’t question what Jon says either. I couldn’t bear listening to a Richie performance to hear what he had to say between songs. He’s not my taste. I don’t really care what he does on his own.

And no one can disprove the logic that you cannot compare Jon and Richie as lone songwriters because there is not enough solo material available from Richie.

Those collaborations required a team of two or more people. If you listen to Desmond, HE came up with the idea of LOAP. Are they all lying or are they all just telling their view? Jon initially didn’t think Prayer would be a hit. He didn’t think Always would either. He wrote it alone, but it took someone else to convince him it was something special.

If he had listened to ME, they would have had a big hit with Walk Like a Man. I don’t think he got actual listeners of country music to inform decisions on that record.

It’s still easier to nail down a sound that is distinctive to Jon. I remember hearing Whole Lot of Leaving before Lost Highway was released. My male friend who loves Richie absolutely insisted he had played a major part in writing that song. I said it sounded like Jon writing about Richie. Who does NOT have a credit on that song? Richie.

Without solo songs from Richie, I find it odd that anyone can say, Oh, Richie came up with that without a video of the writing session.

I’m done. I don’t like going around in circles. Also, I should have been asleep half an hour ago. Sweet dreams, y’all.

Two minor points and then I'm outta here for tonight:

Did someone say that Richie was a "better" songwriter? I must have missed that. And I think it might have been you who started the whole discussion about Jon's and Richie's comparative writing abilities, based on nothing BUT the fact that Jon has written albums full of songs by himself, while 99% of Richie's songs are collaborations. So, based on the same lack of hard evidence, your assertion would be more valid because... ?


You might want to explain that to the court that awarded Matthew Fisher, Procal Harem's organist, 40% of the royalties for Whiter Shade of Pale because of the distinctive organ at the beginning, leaving 30% each to the guys who actually wrote the lyrics and the music. Just sayin'... ;)


Y'all have fun... :sleeping:

songwriting credits is a huge topic...imo jon should give credit to the band in cases like drycounty, always bor and many more...i am 100% sure that the initial demo from jon was a chord based song and the band gave wonderfull melodies and musicality. jon obviousloy prioritizes words//lyrics but he shouldnt...melodies,riffs and solos are equally important(dry county is a big example of injustice imo and paints jon in an unflattering colour)
regarding blaze of glory jon stated the whole song was ready and aldo nova came with the intro riff but he didnt want to give him a credit because he feels he deserved the whole song...i can sympathise with jon in this one, i m sure he found a way to pay him back but in bjs music there are certain examples where the bands input is soooo obvious and evident that its ajoke...
as far as the songwriting skills, richie is or was gifted for sure, jon is more prolific and smarter lyric wise but richie because of his guitar skills and vocal soul background gave a factor that made a difference.

Well, it seems the opposite, you are constantly making that point to justify it.

And here you put yourself in evidence again. You just come to tell us the bad news or minimize as much as possible any merit that Richie has made. An example, I do not hate Phil, but I do not give a shit, and you will not see me writing in his threads constantly, maybe in a timely manner, and sometimes when I see something certainly good, I can deal with that and give him some credit, because I'm not a person with hate and spite.

You are making the circles yourself. It's not that Jon has a lot of material when it comes to solo albums, and I think he uses a lot of collaborators in Destination Anywhere. My point is that the amount is not always better. Jon has written on his own some great songs and others that are crap.

Well, it's your decision. But I suppose you can not help but make that constant point that Richie is just a piece of accessory in BJ, right? minimizing all their contributions, and stating that Richie is overrated, which is the biggest nonsense I've read, since it has always been undervalued, and only some fans value their contributions in this band as in their solo albums. But it seems that you don't like even if some fans love their contribution or their own things, and you need to eradicate that little halo of light with Napalm in your comments.

For now these songs are my favorite:

1º Richie on vocals
I Don't Want to Have to Need You Now
Take Me
One Night Of Peace

2º Orianthi on Vocals
Together On The Outside
Masterpiece
We Are Magic

3º Duet songs
Making History
Walk With Me
Truth

I can't wait to discover more songs. I guess the next will come in February.

The Richie Sambora & Orianthi album
 

Wasn't Midnight in Chelsea a hit for JBJ? I don't recall how it charted in the US, and couldn't find it easily online, but I do recall the music video had a very heavy rotation on VH1 at the time. I can't imagine it would have played so often if it wasn't at least a minor hit.

Does anyone have any idea of how successful these EPs by RSO are? I don't know how you would even measure success nowadays.

How successful were Richie's solo albums?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Go to rocknation’s website if you want to hear RSO on Feedback. Sorry about the background noise. We have a few large dogs who like to sit outside my window and bark.

Removed link because it leads directly to mp3.

Thanks to rocknation for attempting to improve the sound and uploading it.

Maybe rocknation can give instruction to the website to find it.

I'm certain it was #3 in UK?


Edit - Just read it was 4. Still higher than 95% of Bon Jovi singles. Always/IML and then Prayer (same position) only ones higher?
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Re: Songwriting....Richie has a certain style which caries across a lot of songs in both his solo, Bon Jovi and now the RSO catalogue. To me it's pretty clear that there are a lot of Songs where Richie has written the majority and maybe Jon has just adjusted some lyrics to suit him better here and there, or added a bridge or something, and therefore got a songwriting credit. But Jon always gets his name credited first, because he is Jon and he has to be first. Fair enough. Just like it's clear that some are Jon's and maybe Richie changed a bit here and there. And some are a true collaboration.

Back to the EP....Making History, the song, sounds very much like rise. But like MH song more. Mix is quite messy again, like Rise

I was disappointing with Magic after hearing the live version. Very poppy production. I was hoping for more of an acoustic style track like the live version we've been hearing. Had potential, but unfulfilled unfortunately. Would love to hear an acoustic version done as a bonus track.

Love the next 3 songs! Already posted my comments of Walk With Me, but love it more the more I hear it. The middle part doesn't bother me now, I've got used it it.

Yeah it's definitely Alice Cooper on together On The Outside. Really like this one too. Very different.

IDWTHTNU is the best thing that I have heard from RSO so far. Definitely has a Bounce kinda feel to it and actually reminds me of The Distance in places. Great Richie vocal and just a great feel throughout.

One Night Of Peace is a fantastic vocal, but other than that it doesn't do much for me. It's quite predictable.

Someone said that they needed to stop doing so many styles, but I love the fact that all of these songs are so diverse. So far we have Rock, Pop, Country, Gospel, Reggae....this to me really signifies why Richie was feeling so stagnant in Bon Jovi..he wanted to do things that he just wouldn't get to do in the band....it wasn't necessarily about more guitars or being a front man. But it is good to hear more guitars on this EP. Still waiting for a couple of really good bluesy numbers!!

Overall, big improvement on Rise I feel....will listen to this a lot!

I've only seen 2, that I can recall, and they were both on Shark Frenzy, so back in his late teens.

I think there's 3 songs on Stranger that he wrote alone.

Well, damn! I can almost understand forgetting Church of Desire and River of Love, but how the hell did I forget Mr. Bluesman?? :roll:

Toldja! My memory sucks! I probably wouldn't even have remembered the 2 on Shark Frenzy if I hadn't looked that stuff up the other day. Lord, I miss my mind!

http://rocktivity.com/bj/richieHOFrsoInt.mp3

(The dogs kick in at the six minute mark, LOL...)

Anyone who has the writing credits for the new songs, as well as the former EP?

For what it's worth, about the first EP, Wiki says "All songs written by Richie Sambora, Orianthi". I would think it's probably true for the 2nd EP, too.

I know Wiki isn't the final word on anything but I think that's probably accurate because when the songs have been introduced live, one of them usually says something like, "we wrote this at the kitchen table" or "this was one of the first songs we wrote". I haven't heard any other writers mentioned.

Since I was the one who had just remarked that Jon saying something doesn't make it a fact, I'm going to assume that your third-person accusation refers to me. If so, I obviously have been misunderstood. For the record: I have never believed Richie's words shouldn't be questioned. I don't necessarily believe everything he says myself.

What I DO believe, and have said many times, is that we shouldn't filter what people say through our own biases, and then twist or change their words to claim that they said things they didn't say, or to try to explain away things they did say, or to justify a personal opinion as if that would make it a fact. And that applies to statements made by Jon, Richie, or anybody else. Let the actual words speak for themselves. Question the truth of what people say all day long; but stick to what they actually said, not what we think, remember, or wish they had said. What we believe they really meant, despite their actual words, is nothing more than an opinion and shouldn't be presented as a fact.
.

I like the new EP, too; but then I liked Rise. I like the eclectiic mix of genres on both EPs and agree with your comments about Richie wanting to stretch himself beyond the confines of the band. I don't think it was all about the guitars, either; I believe he may have said, at one point, that was part of it. But he also said a lot about creative freedom and self-expression and exploring different styles. That may not have been possible in Bon Jovi, not because Jon held him back necessarily, but because there may have been things he wanted to try that just didn't fit with the band's culture or the direction it was taking.

Making History: I didn't like the fuzzy sound on Burn the Candle Down or Rise, and I don't like it any better on this song or We Are Magic. I don't get the fascination with it. It sounds like the static when a radio station isn't coming in clearly. I also think that's part of why the lyrics are so hard to understand.

We Are Magic: This is my least favorite of the 10 songs. I liked it when I first heard it live, but both live versions are better than the studio cut, imo. I can't figure out what's up with Richie's line "I'll be the strength you need" because it's just the one line and it seems out of place. It isn't a bridge or pre-chorus or part of a verse, and it throws me off since there's nothing to balance it anywhere else in the song. Or if there is, I missed it.

Walk with Me: On the other hand, I liked the studio version of Walk with Me better than any of the live versions. If they're gonna do country, this is the way to do it, imo. It has an unapologetic country feel and I love the steel guitars. The harmonica makes much more sense of that funky middle section than the two of them beating on their guitars did. This way, it sounds almost like a jugband, like a washboard and spoons, with the clippity-clop beat and the harmonica just kinda puffin' along in the background.

I Don't Want to Have to Need You Now: I love IDWTHTNYN, despite the long title. (And as an acronym it still beats the hell out of Labour of Love). :)

The lyrics are cool, with what seems like callbacks to NSG and Ballad of Youth, and I think Richie sounds really strong on the lead vocals. This one sounds the most like pure Richie to me. Even more so, I think, than Take Me.

Together on the Outside: The surprise for me is how much I like this one after playing it a few times. On first listen, I didn't like Alice's creepy-sounding spoken intro; and the lyrics were difficult to understand. It may just be Ori's accent, though, because on the second or third listen, the lyrics became clearer. I love the ethereal, atmospheric feel because it reflects the dreamy, internal dialogue of the lyrics and the way everything is empty behind the mask of pretense. Lovely.

(And just knowing, now, that it's Alice in the beginning makes the creepiness work. It's Alice! And he phoned it in from Transylvania! Of course it's gonna be creepy!!) :)

My guess is that this one is almost purely Ori; but I'm not familiar enough with her style to say for sure. I wonder if there are any Ori fans here, from before RSO, who could comment on that.

Overall, I think it's a fun EP. My only concern is that somebody said Richie tweeted that if you have both EPs you have the album. I'm still holding out hope for more songs, partly because I selfishly want to hear more of the music; but also because it doesn't seem to make sense, from a marketing standpoint, for them to release two EPs and then go through the process of releasing an album with nothing to offer but the same songs. Why would people shell out more cash for songs they already own, if there isn't something new on the album to entice them?

On the other hand, it would feel like a rip-off if you had to pay full-price for the album only to get a couple of new songs.

The only way I can see it working out well is if Rolo gets his wish and there's a double album. One CD with these songs and another with all new songs. :)

I agree with this. I don't get the thing with the fuzzy sound as well. Seems like Richie has started a new trend that he needs a fuzzy shit opening song for every release. It's like its his way to prove to the world that he still is a "rock n roller" so to say, but any half decent guitarist can fuzz their guitar up and write a half assed guitar riff and say it rocks.
Maybe comes across a little rough now, but for me its just a waste of space and judging how messy it sounds on an album it must be horrible live considering Richies standard these days.

Well, if it's a trend, let's hope it's one that goes away soon!! It's already been around about 5 years too long, imo. :)

Jackie, sometimes you assume things I say are meant just for you when they are not. That’s one reason I have not engaged in conversation with you for about 3-4 months.

Everyone must be sick of the same things getting said in circles for the last 4 years. For the sake of every one else, I think I’m going back to not engaging with you. I guess instead of biting my tongue, I will have to bite my fingers.

I'm not exactly a fan, but I listened to her solo albums quite a lot. Yes, that is totally her style.

Yup; that would be why I specifically stated that it was an assumption on my part and prefaced the second sentence with "IF so". But you know the funny thing about that? Sometimes I assume that when they are about me; and I notice that you didn't deny that this was one of those times.

Y'know, you're getting almost as good as your hero at wording things very carefully so you can say whatever you want to say without worrying about taking responsibility for it later. Have you been taking private "spin" lessons?

(A word of advice: it's really much less complicated if you just make statements you're willing to stand behind... just sayin')

And as I told you the last two or three times you said something similar: It's your choice. If you don't want to engage with me, don't. No need for explanations or excuses. I'll probably continue to respond to your posts if I have something to say; but you should never worry that my heart will be irrevocably broken if you don't reply. I promise you (again), my world will keep spinning around. The sun will continue to rise in the East. And God willing, I'll live to post another day.

Careful with those fingers! ;)

Thanks, Gabriel. I thought it must be, because I didn't hear a lot of "Richie-ness" in it. I appreciate the response.