New Tunings This Tour
 

So some songs have been confusing me and I need to go through the new songs one by one BUT Roller Coaster was recorded half a step down and for the live performances everything was tuned a full step below that. People have been talking about the band tuning down more than the traditional half a step and I can confirm they are officially in this era.

When they played the old songs (Medicine, Who Says, IML, Runaway) they still did in the same key as they normally do it (half step down). Labor Of Love was played in original key, for example. I'm pretty sure the tuning in decided on a song-by-song basis. I advocated for lower key before the 2015 tour, but they still kept it the same, so I don't expect it to change now, but we'll see.

Thanks for checking it out! Good point. This is pretty much the first time they've tuned that low so let's see. It would be the most opportune time.

Are you sure about that? The studio version of Rollercoaster is in Eb and the live version in D.

Yup, that's what I'm saying. The live version is played even lower than the already half step down album version. I just double checked and the chord shapes would have to be on guitars tuned down below half a step to match up.

I don't know how you get to this assumption, but it's wrong. I just ran the album version through some audio software and transposed it one half step down, and then it's in the same key as the live version. I also tried one full step, but that's too low. So it's the usual half step down.

You might be confused by the actual tuning of the guitars or use of a capo, if you go by visual reference, but musically it's being played one half step down from the studio version, as always/since the 90s (?)...

I don't think we're arguing the same points. If it's recorded in half a step down, which it was, and then it's dropped another half step for live, it's now a full step under standard tuning. That's the point I'm making. The guitars for this track live are a full step lower. Which isn't as big a drop considering half a step down is usual for the band, but a full step is not something that's regular.

Hmm ok, but who's to say how it was recorded? I mean, do we have proof that they really downtuned the guitars for the recording or did they just play it in that key (someone mentioned Eb)? You know that not all songs are played in E, right? ;-)

Unless they switch guitars for this song when playing it live, it would be impossible to do this one song "a full step" down and the other songs the usual half step, unless they used a capo or something...

My point was just that, as usual, it is played a half step down live compared to the studio version, regardless of the key the song is written/recorded in.

Agreed. To me the only tuning discussion that makes sense is the relative "studio vs. live" key comparison. Nobody knows the little tweaks and tricks they did in a studio. No matter how any song was recorded, that is the 'original/standard key' for that particular song.

The first notes a dead giveaway, it's an E. You can hear the low E string. If it was tuned to standard, you wouldn't have an Eb, it'd be half a step too high. Of course not all songs are played in E, hahaha. They have gone back and forth with recording in half a step down and standard.

I'm not for sure for sure about the other songs on the album. Absolutely this is played a half step down from the album version. Here look at this video: at 0:10 you can see Phil play an A chord then back to the original E the song started in. If your guitar is tuned a full step below standard that's exactly what those chords will sound like.

I'm not arguing what the song is recorded in, though it stands to reason, I just can't shake that this song is a full step below standard live.

EDIT: Just watched the Barrymore feed. I was over zealous when I said new tunings this tour. Both Born Again Tomorrow and Roller Coaster are tuned a full step down. Switching guitars isn't an issue, really. It's just Phil and John, Hugh's 5 string doesn't change but Phil has his black guitar for those two songs. Can anyone confirm what I'm saying so I don't look like I'm going crazy?

I agree on the chords being played, so yeah, if he's only using that guitar on songs tuned a full step down, then you've got a point! ;-)

Just watched the Barrymore show and Phil is using that same guitar for We don't Run, and the chord fingering they are using is in Am, but as someone corrected me when I asked, the key is the same as when they played it in the 2015 shows so, that guitar is for sure tuned a full step down....

I fail to follow this thread... the whole debate about downtuning is from the studio version and usually to attack Jon's lack of vocal ability, not the tuning of the guitars... standard tuning is pretty arbitrary - it's common for different styles of music to use different tuning from the barely different like drop d to different major, minor, modal, extended tunings - many of which are actually easier to play than standard tuning, depending on what you're doing...
If you're playing a few very basic songs in Eb or D it kinda makes sense to downtune your guitar for ease, but I'm unsure as to why this is a point to debate in quite this way? I can understand if you're just analysing the play but I don't see what the critical point is at all?

Yeah, it's all about vocals. That's the whole point of debate from my angle - will Jon downtune some old songs even further, because he is clearly incapable in delivering those songs in the current tunings. Who knows how that would sound, but if ever decides to do it, the time is now.

It's just something I find interesting. Tuning down guitars a full step will make things easier for Jon to handle vocally and was kicked around as an idea for the last few years. It means Jon's voice is at a point where they need to occasionally tune down a full step. I didn't do this to be critical of the condition, there were people saying the music would sound too sluggish and low to sound good and from what I can tell it sounds okay. The whole point was this is a new tuning for the band.

I known nothing about tuning and key, tbh. However, I am aware that songs can be adjusted to fit the vocals. That is why, I assume that the band will have to do some adjustments ( I am not sure if "downtune" is the right term to call it) so that Jon isn't forced to sing the classics they way they were recorded back in the day. There must be a way to do this without ruining them.
P.S. Joey Tempest of Europe has been singing the back catalogue differently ever since the band reunited in 2003 and the old songs do not sound bad at all, even though Joey's vocals are not that "high" anymore. Those of you who are well versed in this field will tell if a similar strategy can or cannot be applied to Bon Jovi.

It's not a technique he's done to the classics yet, just a couple of songs off the new album. Basically were saying they keep the chord shapes the same, just tune the strings a half step down from the recorded version. Which has been pretty much what they've always done but in the past when a song was recorded in Eb its stayed in Eb live, not dropped another half step.

I see. Do you think there will be another half step drop next year for the classics?

Not really an expert in here, but as a guitarist and pianist I'll give my thoughts and simple explanations on why they keep the chord shapes while tuning the strings down.

If you are Richie or Phil or even David and have played the songs for decades in a particular tone, then it would be really difficult to "re-learn" it in another. They would have to move the riffs, the chords, hit the chords differently etc. So it's easier to play as always while having the instruments transposed down. About David, you can transpose the keyboard very easily for many steps.

Another reason is the way it sounds when you hit a chord in a fixed position. In HAND, Richie and Phil use a capo on the 2nd fret. This is essential because without this, if they played the chords otherwise, the sound will be not exactly the same. The notes of the chords would be the same but positioned on other strings and this makes a difference.

As for the songs that are played like the studio, I guess it's because Jon can still hit them this way. If he is struggling, he may drop it a little lower.

Listening to various artists lately, I hope they won't drop any song another step down (that means two). The songs sound differently and you can hear that something is slightly wrong.

So, for what I understand, they keep playing the songs half step down live, right?

Even with rollercoaster being played a full step down from the standard tune live, it's still half step down from the album version, isn't it?

I guess what you're trying to say it's that playing a full step down doesn't sound bad, so they can do it with the old songs. But I think what would sound bad wouldn't be playing with that tuning, just the fact of playing a full step down from the album version, regardless of which tuning is used.

Correct. Them playing the songs a half step from recorded is still what's happening here. The change is sometimes, when the song is recorded a half step down, they don't.

Do you have an example for that? As far as I'm concerned, you're right that a few newer songs seem to already been recorded a half step "down", meaning the guitar is tuned differently, probably and most likely due to Jon's vocal limitations. But still, all songs I've ever heard are tuned down one half step from the studio version, each and every one of them (not counting the rare occasion where the band performed one of the singles in the studio key, probably due to only singing live and having the band pre-recorded).

I'll take a look tonight for sure!

I'm With You
Bullet
Any other Day

Are the three I've found so far that are played at the same tuning as the studio recordings. Still going through 'em.

Labor Of Love
The Fighter
Not Running Anymore
With These Two Hands
You Had Me From Hello
Blood Money
Santa Fe

That's off the top of my head after like 3 mins of YouTube research. Obviously, would love to find time to dig the whole catalog and not just songs that were my guesses.

And then there obviously temporary exceptions like Keep The Faith (1992 promo appearances), Always and Saturday Night (1994 promo appearances), etc.

Thanks! So I would assume the previous trend was indeed whatever songs are tuned down half step in the studio just remain so when live.

I didn't have time to check on those yet, but it would be highly illogical if it were the case. Think about it, if you "tune down half step" in the studio (i.e. use a non-standard E-tuning), why would you not down-tune the guitar that's used for those another half step live (like with Roller Coaster)? And if the guitar was indeed in standard tuning in the studio, and the song is just for example in A instead of E, why not use the "normal" half step down tuning live and hence play it in Ab?

I know that *I* wouldn't want to make things too complicated and just replicate everything like done in the studio, but with the respective guitars tuned a half step down (Eb instead of E, etc.) Only exception would probably be tunings like Drop D, I don't know if you actually can down-tune those, as I only ever played in standard E tuning up until now ;-)

Isn't We Got It Goin' On done in standard tuning live? I might be wrong, but I recall it being played with the low E-string tuned to C and the rest of the guitar in standard-tuning both on the album and live.

I feel like having a section of guitars tuned down an extra half step is more of a hassle. Pull up any of those songs and check, there's no difference in tuning.

DryCounty, I'll have to check but I believe the studio version was tuned C to E and the live version is Cb to Eb.

Yup, totally forgot about that one! thanks

Just checked it out. Had no idea that was done in standard. Thanks!