[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Faceman

Well, I think it's not mutually exclusive.
Generally speaking: When you get betrayed by a friend it can damage your psyche very bad. Although you wish for the good old times to return you won't open the door for that person again because the damage is too bad.

I'm still very hazy on what happened because Jon's narrative has changed so much to fit what he's promoting. No one saw it coming. When I got the call I knew. He just didn't show up and no one knows why. Bobby was brought in as insurance in case Richie doesn't show up.

I think you're right, I just don't know how much it effected him but it's so strange to be both royally pissed off and also let your voice go to hell because you can't cope.

[blazeofglory]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

If this was all based around Richie leaving, Richie is the one saying it's not forever and he'd like to come back at some point. Jon has commented he'd be hard pressed to let him back in because of how long he was gone.

I cannot see how this is psychological when you're the one shutting the door on a return.

That's not really how trauma usually works - it's way more complex than that. If you've experienced something traumatic and it has had longterm mental and/or physical effects on you, reversing or undoing the situation won't just magically cure you of those effects (and sometimes going back to the way things were before might not even be the best option for you).

Compare it to a bad break-up: you got cheated on and dumped and now you're dealing with the psychological consequences (the pain of being left and betrayed, trust issues, the loss of your partner, etc.). Now if your ex apologizes to you and you decide to get back together, that most likely won't magically cure you of your trust issues or undo the pain the break-up caused you - and maybe getting back together with your ex isn't what's best for your mental wellbeing at all, even if you miss them a lot and wish they had never betrayed and left you in the first place.

My point is this can be a psychological/psychosomatic issue (or at least in part) caused by Richie leaving, but that doesn't mean that Richie coming back would magically undo it, and Jon might also feel like Richie coming back now really wouldn't do his wellbeing any good at all.

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by blazeofglory

That's not really how trauma usually works - it's way more complex than that. If you've experienced something traumatic and it has had longterm mental and/or physical effects on you, reversing or undoing the situation won't just magically cure you of those effects (and sometimes going back to the way things were before might not even be the best option for you).

Compare it to a bad break-up: you got cheated on and dumped and now you're dealing with the psychological consequences (the pain of being left and betrayed, trust issues, the loss of your partner, etc.). Now if your ex apologizes to you and you decide to get back together, that most likely won't magically cure you of your trust issues or undo the pain the break-up caused you - and maybe getting back together with your ex isn't what's best for your mental wellbeing at all, even if you miss them a lot and wish they had never betrayed and left you in the first place.

My point is this can be a psychological/psychosomatic issue (or at least in part) caused by Richie leaving, but that doesn't mean that Richie coming back would magically undo it, and Jon might also feel like Richie coming back now really wouldn't do his wellbeing any good at all.

Interesting, I never thought about it like that, thanks!

[bonjovi90]

With most of the things, I think it's neither just black or white.
Jon definitely was affected by Richie's departure, the pressue of pulling a world tour off without him and knowing he didn't have his most important vocal backup put a lot of stress on him, as did other things like Tico's emergency surgeries etc. that year. It was the catalysator for the decline.

However, I think there's also a physical aspect since his tone got so hoarse and clipping that I can't imagine it solely being related to Richie's abscence 5 to 10 years later. If Jon was so keen on continuing to tour and knew it was only because of Richie, they would have at least tried to piece things back together. Unless his pride (or stubborness) really is that big that he wants to prove it to Richie at any cost (not that I think Richie still cares).

Jon losing confidence in his vocal abilites, hence probably even "misusing" techniques even more and three decades of crazy touring catching up just spiralled up to a thunderstorm he couldn't escape from anymore.

[bounce442]

Originally Posted by BJFan99

What I've also been wondering is how Jon still sounded "like himself" and could mostly sing in tune - apart from some of the really high notes - until like late 2014/early 2015, but between mid-15 and early '16 his tone just went totally upside down... first got super thin and then started progressing into this current hoarse huffing and puffing

https://youtu.be/1i3sjxW4IwU (Destination Anywhere from San Diego, October 2014 - sounds "normal" and not like he's struggling too much)

https://youtu.be/1WI0bDki3IQ (same song from Nashville, March 2016 - sounds much thinner, most of the choruses are flat/off key, and even his lower register on the verses is starting to sound damaged)

https://youtu.be/81mTooIi7bM (Joey from the fan club weekend at Bahamas, May 2015 - sounds already a bit thinner than the Destination performance from the previous October, but still "healthy" and in tune)

https://youtu.be/p544IEHv3X0 (same song from the Runaway to Paradise cruise at Bahamas, April 2019 - WTF is all I can say... between 2015-16 and 2019 he seemed to age 20 years at least - visually and vocally -, in addition to the 10-15 years he already aged between 2013 and 2014; even his physical mannerisms started looking awkward)

That's crazy to watch.
It happened quick but not over night. Contrary to my own theory above Jon sounded better towards the end of the WAN tour, after Richie left. I remember thinking he had sometime to prove. 29 songs sets, playing Always most nights. Destination Anywhere, Oct 2014, nearly a year later, he still sounded great.

I'm changing my theory. Watching these videos... the answer has been in front of us the whole time. He gets is super human vocal ability from the amount of dye he puts in his hair.

[rolo_tomachi]

All I know is that Jon and Richie have sung a lot about love, and if they can't forgive each other, their souls are poisoned by hate. I said it before, Axl and Slash are together and have managed to overcome their problems, be it hate or egos. That Jon and Richie can't do it doesn't speak highly of them as people seeking forgiveness and talk about brotherhood, friendship.

Something rotten smells in Denmark, and I think it's better not to find out. Just finish it like The Beatles did.

[blazeofglory]

Originally Posted by bonjovi90

With most of the things, I think it's neither just black or white.
Jon definitely was affected by Richie's departure, the pressue of pulling a world tour off without him and knowing he didn't have his most important vocal backup put a lot of stress on him, as did other things like Tico's emergency surgeries etc. that year. It was the catalysator for the decline.

However, I think there's also a physical aspect since his tone got so hoarse and clipping that I can't imagine it solely being related to Richie's abscence 5 to 10 years later. If Jon was so keen on continuing to tour and knew it was only because of Richie, they would have at least tried to piece things back together. Unless his pride (or stubborness) really is that big that he wants to prove it to Richie at any cost (not that I think Richie still cares).

Jon losing confidence in his vocal abilites, hence probably even "misusing" techniques even more and three decades of crazy touring catching up just spiralled up to a thunderstorm he couldn't escape from anymore.

100% agree. I think it's a combination of many different factors - psychological, physical, technical and sometimes also random situational ones - and they all affected and interacted with each other (and continue to do so), so it just totally spiralled out of control in a relatively short period of time and now the damage is done.

(There's a really perfect German word ("hochschaukeln") for how all the factors interacted with each other and made everything spiral out of control, but I cannot for the life of me think of a 100% fitting English translation right now &#128514

[Javier]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

There was a podcast Phil did where he mentioned there is a song in the current setlist (this was back in 2018ish) he really doesn't like and when pressed he commented that he wants to keep his job. I don't know if there's an NDA or not on it though but you may be right.

Bets on what that song is?? My guess would be 'Amen'

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by rolo_tomachi

All I know is that Jon and Richie have sung a lot about love, and if they can't forgive each other, their souls are poisoned by hate. I said it before, Axl and Slash are together and have managed to overcome their problems, be it hate or egos. That Jon and Richie can't do it doesn't speak highly of them as people seeking forgiveness and talk about brotherhood, friendship.

Something rotten smells in Denmark, and I think it's better not to find out. Just finish it like The Beatles did.

Slash also went through a very nasty divorce shortly before the reunion. Something to keep in mind.

[Butters]

Originally Posted by Javier

Bets on what that song is?? My guess would be 'Amen'

Who Says You Can't Go Home?