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Jon the poet VS Jon the news anchor

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  #1  
Old 10-02-2020, 07:33 PM
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symbeline symbeline is offline
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Default Jon the poet VS Jon the news anchor

Bear with me, the title is not just a blatant attempt to get your attention (well, maybe a tiny bit).

Over the years and especially in the last decade I’ve noticed a worrying trend with Jon’s songwriting style. There’s been a slow shift towards stating the obvious when it comes to “serious” themes, and stating it again, and again and DID YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I JUST SAID BECAUSE I WILL REPEAT IT AGAIN IN THE SECOND VERSE AND I HOPE I WAS CLEAR ENOUGH TO CONVEY THE MESSAGE, DAMN IT, IT’S A VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE. It's as if there are two tiny Jons fighting for songwriting dominance inside his head. The one that had the magic touch to suck you into the song and feel the pain/heartbreak/anguish no matter what the song is really about and the one who writes utter garbage weak, contrived and trite lyrics like the ones from "Welcome to Whenever You Are", that slow song from LH, half of TC, most of WAN if memory serves right, "Touch of Grey", "Walls" and most of 2020 again. I was actually astonished to see how many of these songs we’ve had in the last 20 years, I thought it was only a couple that I really hated but there’s a clear trend here.

Let’s not pretend his songwriting is top-notch most of the time. He unashamedly uses easy clichés as crutches left and right, that’s part of his brand and I have no problem with that when it comes to the fun, simple songs. But he does know how to nail the hard stuff, he knows how to work with lyrics, music and delivery to create the right feeling, he’s done it as recently as the last two albums so it’s not something he lost ages ago. He just chose a different path for this new album.

That’s why 2020 as a whole didn't work for me. The lyrics are very on the nose, there's no subtlety or finesse, no real substance, just big words and nice sentiments. Jon used to ace this kind of thing when it mattered and he does find a good balance in "Brothers in Arms", which unsurprisingly I really liked, so not sure what happened with the rest of the songs. Well, I'm actually sure that what happened is that Jon wanted to go with his vision no matter what so he went full-on political/socially conscious without any filters and that's his choice, I just don't think he got it right, he sounds either preachy or patronizing and I’m sure he intended quite the opposite. His heart is in the right place but the lyrics are giving me whiplash, taking me out of the songs over and over again when he states facts, most of the time literally out of the news. I get what he wants to do, he’s not in the mood for sugarcoating things and using metaphors when talking about themes like gun violence, civil rights, police brutality. I truly get it and I agree that’s something that needs to be addressed without mincing words, but he’s done this type of songs from the beginning of his career and those old songs still feel current, could apply to our sorry state of affairs, the metaphors are sometimes simple but very powerful and timeless, that’s why they are ****ing amazing songs, it’s not because of the words he chose, it’s how he poured his all into the lyrics. It really shows in his old “serious” songs. But most of 2020 songs you don’t get his pain over the wrongs of the world and I believe it’s because he’s trying too hard to get the message right, to make a point and ensure there are no double meanings or second guessing. Maybe it’s because he has this new "**** the fans who feel alienated by my lyrics/new music style" attitude, which I would usually applaud, but I feel he’s gone overboard this time and the end result feels very forced.

Take “Blood in The Water” for example. The parallels with "Dry County" are obvious and are obviously there for a reason, Jon didn’t just fancy upgrading the sound of an old fan favorite. The song structure, the themes, the images it evokes, they are pretty similar and I’m sure Jon intended BITW to work as a bookend, not just a callback, and for the most part it really works: the song is beautifully constructed, the solo is a bit underwhelming but tasteful nonetheless coming from Phil, vocally it’s also very reminiscent of times long past and it’s one of the few songs in the new album where his current vocal state doesn’t detract from the song but enhances it, there’s a vulnerability that really fits the song, but (you saw this coming) the Jon that wrote "Dry County", and "These Days" and "Saturday Night" and many others wouldn’t have left that iffy line about the Russian hack bot. The song conveys the message wonderfully without that reality check. It’s super jarring and takes you immediately out of an otherwise almost perfect song. You might say that I’m overreacting, that’s it’s just one line in the bridge (what’s up with bridges lately, they’ve been pretty hit or miss) that goes pretty unnoticed and it’s true, it does, but I’m still absolutely baffled that Jon could not come up with a better lyric in line with the rest of the song. It would've taken him like 30 seconds to realize that his audience is not that stupid and knows what the song is about, hammering the point to let you know there’s a reality outside is what’s commonly known as breaking the 4th wall and that’s not a good thing unless used for comedic purposes.

I’ve never been big on nostalgia but I’ve had "Santa Fe" (not "Dry County", strangely enough) stuck in my head ever since I heard the snippet for "Blood in The Water" and well… I keep shaking my head in sad disbelief like an old lady. See Jon, you did that to me, you turned me into that bitter old “stay off my lawn" person (awwww poor Jon, that’s not true).

I know he’s still got it and I hope 2020 is just a phase.

But I have to say that these lyrics (from a song I didn't enjoy at all, "Let it Rain") really got me in the grand scheme of things:

Somewhere there's forgiveness, for the broken ones like me,
Who once stared down mighty mountains, and now they sit beneath the trees,

S'ok Jon, you are forgiven. I still love ya, you old stubborn bastard
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We know Jon, we know

Last edited by symbeline; 10-02-2020 at 07:41 PM..
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  #2  
Old 10-03-2020, 10:40 AM
Elvistico Elvistico is offline
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What a complicated post and even after 2 reads I still am not sure to really get your point. But I think I do and I do not agree.

Back in the 80's Jon was a master at Bubblegum stories about being cowboys, about highschool romance and he was a master at writing sloganesque songs, basically stuff that would be great on t-shirts. Nothing wrong with that! It's like action hero movies or those romantic comedies and chickflicks. Those are extremely popular. It's for the masses and BJ were extremely good at it. So, it fitted perfect and they gave us the blockbusters.

In the 90'ies, they even got better by adding more layers to the lyrics at times and writing Dry County, These Days, I believe, Hey God, ... And on love songs, Jon remained on top of his game. ( Even if he was already selling us the idea that Bed of Roses and Always were not lovesongs )

Post 2000 things did not improve any further. Basically there was an overload of moon, june, spoon ( under the form of live your life, fight, stand up, don't back down, stand your ground, don't follow, ... ) but Jon would comment on those songs as songs that tackled various serious topics. Except for the fact that if Jon had not told you so, every song could just be about anything. And that's where Jon and Richie would always tell you that they were such great songwriters because they were able to take a specific story, and tell it in such a way that anyone could relate to it.

That was of course one way to look at it, but another way to look at it was the fact that their lyrics were pretty lazy, uber generic and never got above the level of bubblegum and t-shirt slogans.

In term of food - Bon Jovi were and remained Mc Donalds. Nothing wrong with that. Mc Donalds is probably the best fastfood chain in the world. Nothing wrong with fast-food. It's delicious at times and no-one can resist it.
It becomes another story when a fast food chain will try to sell you its fastfood as something different than what it is.

Fast forward to 2020 : Finally songs as lower the flag, Do what you can, American Reckoning and Unbroken are songs that are right on topic, no doubt about what they are and because of the topic, a lot of people will be able to relate. Sure, you can not interprete them freely anymore, but they are stories well written. Finally he's getting there. Weather everyone likes this or not is another story, but Jon finally did it.

Last edited by Elvistico; 10-03-2020 at 10:53 AM..
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Old 10-04-2020, 12:47 PM
Alphavictim Alphavictim is offline
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I am still not 100% sure what Blood in the Water is about, so I'm not quite sure it's really all too straight forward.
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Old 10-05-2020, 01:13 AM
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symbeline symbeline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphavictim View Post
I am still not 100% sure what Blood in the Water is about, so I'm not quite sure it's really all too straight forward.
Is that a bad thing?

I'm curious because my point was precisely that it is a good thing.

Lyrics that are too universal (and thus too safe) or too specific rarely make great songs. I mean Undivided is pretty specific for the right reasons but it's a one-off.

Jon can write great lyrics inspired by something very specific in a way that they can apply to anything more universal rather than the opposite, which is what I was complaining about and that's what makes a good number of his recent "serious" efforts such poor songs.

I used BITW as the perfect example to what I was trying to say, not because I think it's a bad song (quite the opposite!): unless you've been living under a rock, you will catch all the references to Trump and his administration but even if you did live under a rock for the past 4 years, the lyrics can apply to several related themes that circle back to politics, media and the manipulation of society to become so polarized in recent times, and the message works wonderfully for both instances. That's what I call a great lyric effort. But then Jon also wants to write about immigrant struggle (per his words in an old interview) and wants to hammer his point about the song being about Trump and that's where the song loses its great potential. I can get past the heavy handed themes of the second part of the first verse but the bridge is overkill and unnecessarily too "real" if you want.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Jon says that KTF was inspired by racial unrest, DC by the oil crisis, if HAND was a FU to Bush Jr., if Happy Now is about Obama, if All Hail the King is about the Soul Kitchen, all these songs can be interpreted in many ways, even DC with its direct references that can be interpreted as a metaphor or an artistic license that works in the context of the song. That's not the case with BITW and it's a real shame.

And it happens over and over again in this record, in the end Unbroken sounds more sincere even knowing that maybe it's only translating a script into a song. I'm not against Jon writing that type of songs at all, but he's proven that he doesn't know a middle ground, he's either tactfully vague but knows how to deliver a powerful metaphor or he just goes for the kill and writes, well, most of his recent "serious" songs. The title of the thread was obviously tongue-in-cheek but it's not far off the mark and my frustration comes from a place of really liking Jon as a songwriter, and maybe expecting too much of this record. And also having this feeling that Jon does not trust his audience enough to understand subtlety and needs to go for such heavy handed lyrics when he thinks it matters that his message is understood.
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Old 10-05-2020, 01:31 AM
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symbeline symbeline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvistico View Post
What a complicated post and even after 2 reads I still am not sure to really get your point. But I think I do and I do not agree.

Back in the 80's Jon was a master at Bubblegum stories about being cowboys, about highschool romance and he was a master at writing sloganesque songs, basically stuff that would be great on t-shirts. Nothing wrong with that! It's like action hero movies or those romantic comedies and chickflicks. Those are extremely popular. It's for the masses and BJ were extremely good at it. So, it fitted perfect and they gave us the blockbusters.

In the 90'ies, they even got better by adding more layers to the lyrics at times and writing Dry County, These Days, I believe, Hey God, ... And on love songs, Jon remained on top of his game. ( Even if he was already selling us the idea that Bed of Roses and Always were not lovesongs )

Post 2000 things did not improve any further. Basically there was an overload of moon, june, spoon ( under the form of live your life, fight, stand up, don't back down, stand your ground, don't follow, ... ) but Jon would comment on those songs as songs that tackled various serious topics. Except for the fact that if Jon had not told you so, every song could just be about anything. And that's where Jon and Richie would always tell you that they were such great songwriters because they were able to take a specific story, and tell it in such a way that anyone could relate to it.

That was of course one way to look at it, but another way to look at it was the fact that their lyrics were pretty lazy, uber generic and never got above the level of bubblegum and t-shirt slogans.

In term of food - Bon Jovi were and remained Mc Donalds. Nothing wrong with that. Mc Donalds is probably the best fastfood chain in the world. Nothing wrong with fast-food. It's delicious at times and no-one can resist it.
It becomes another story when a fast food chain will try to sell you its fastfood as something different than what it is.

Fast forward to 2020 : Finally songs as lower the flag, Do what you can, American Reckoning and Unbroken are songs that are right on topic, no doubt about what they are and because of the topic, a lot of people will be able to relate. Sure, you can not interprete them freely anymore, but they are stories well written. Finally he's getting there. Weather everyone likes this or not is another story, but Jon finally did it.
I think I already clarified what I meant in my previous reply, we basically agree on most points and what you said is what I was trying to say except that I don't agree that they haven't written good songs about heavy themes until this album, quite the opposite, this album is a step back in that regard, and that was my whole point.

Jon has written ****ing excellent songs about heavy themes. I'm sure I don't need to list them. Those songs have stood the test of time, the songs in 2020 won't. Well "Blood in the Water" will probably become a fan favorite for its multiple virtues but the lyrics will make us cringe in 15 years, and believe me, we'll be still complaining about the lyric quality in 15 years because Jon is never going to retire and we are a weird bunch that are way too loyal for our own good (well, not me, I know I'm a bad fan).


[VERY OFF TOPIC ALERT]

Sorry if my initial post was basically me rambling for 5 minutes, I tend to give a TL;DR version when I realize that I'm digressing, but these past few months have been exhausting and my brain is not as sharp as it used to be.

I thought it was pretty funny that you mentioned that I wasn't making a lot of sense. It reminded me of a creative writing teacher I had a long long long time ago, in another lifetime. You see, writing is my passion and I had this idea for a while of making it into the cinema/writing world. Of course I'm not stupid and I know my chances were slim to none so I got a degree that would give me a good, stable job first, and then I tried fulfilling my dream. Long story short, I dropped out of cinema school but I did get lots of praise for my writing. I was actually invited to write in the school magazine. The ego boost didn't hurt but I was as cynical then in my twenties as I am now in my... whatever-ies... and I certainly did not believe my own hype, I know that I had used a very bloated and pedantic style that seemed to a favorite among the teachers but my own writing style was more chaotic and rambling-like so I did not have a bright future there. Good to know I wasn't wrong and I didn't make a fool of myself

[/END WEIRD OFF TOPIC]
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These days what's left of me ain't no Prince Charming

We know Jon, we know

Last edited by symbeline; 10-05-2020 at 01:33 AM..
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