[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Thinny

No because bringing in too many outsiders is where Jon went wrong in the first place in my opinion. For me, The JBJ/RS partnership started to dissolve once Jon started bringing in more outside writers, and Richie, I believe, began to feel pushed out. He would rely more on Falcon and Shanks at some points than he would Richie.

You bring in another outside writer and they are just going to be another JBJ yes man like Shanks, and you'll end up with the same old sound regardless. The thing about Richie is that he would challenge Jon. I remember reading stories, when Jon would bring him in a song and Richie would say that the chorus is weak and they'd come up with something better. Maybe in the end, Jon didn't like that and that's why he would go more to other people, but I think Jon needs that to bring the best out of him.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder is nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm talking about creativity, not them longing for each other. My point is that is you work with someone constantly for 30 years it may eventually get stale. Step away from that for a few years and come back to it and it will be somewhat fresh again. Both have new experiences that they can bring to the table, new ideas that they may not have had before etc. I've seen it happen in many cases. Not always, but quite often.

Yes, Jon is out there giving us the same old generic formula or trying to sound like anyone other than Bon Jovi and Richie out out there doing every style under the sun. But you get those two together in a room and I would bet that it would just sound like Jon & Richie again. Whether that would translate on to a record once is anyone's guess, I suppose.

All just speculating of course, we will probably never know if there is any JBJ/RS magic left in there...

But you're using speculation to fuel theories. Why does it have to be Richie growing tired of Jon using co-writers so he lost interest. Why couldn't it be the other way around? You've painted a very specific picture of Jon deciding he didn't like Richie saying no to him and looking elsewhere. I still push the fact that not playing on Wildflower and not being as involved with the the 4 new songs on HAND says a lot, and those are songs Jon wrote on his own (minus Last Cigarette with David. Or so the credits say *dramatic piano music*) and not produced by Shanks.

If there is or isn't a wedge between them I don't think the divide was over outside song writers. They wrote enough songs together after that, the idea that Richie wasn't interested so he gave 10 percent and we cant prove who wrote what doesn't sit with me. His name is everywhere on the credits so it's just as much him as it is Jon.

[Eveline]

Thinny, I'm absolutely in love what you've just written. And what is Bon Jovi these days? Overcrowded with more or less official members, the same run-of-the mill songs, lack of good guitar solos, poor harmonizing, heavy autopromotion of side projects, lingering silence between JBJ and RS, even though there's just one month till the induction and there's a tour in between! I don't get it how can some people think that bringing folks from outside can heal the wounds in the core of the band. Surely, Lou Cox was a catalyst once but he didn't do it the usual way the shrinks counsel their patients. He just brought them together and made them speak to each other, freely and openly so they could come out with the best of them. They're so not done yet but bad decisions cost a lot. TBH, I'm dreading RHOF.

[Thinny]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

But you're using speculation to fuel theories. Why does it have to be Richie growing tired of Jon using co-writers so he lost interest. Why couldn't it be the other way around? You've painted a very specific picture of Jon deciding he didn't like Richie saying no to him and looking elsewhere. I still push the fact that not playing on Wildflower and not being as involved with the the 4 new songs on HAND says a lot, and those are songs Jon wrote on his own (minus Last Cigarette with David. Or so the credits say *dramatic piano music*) and not produced by Shanks.

If there is or isn't a wedge between them I don't think the divide was over outside song writers. They wrote enough songs together after that, the idea that Richie wasn't interested so he gave 10 percent and we cant prove who wrote what doesn't sit with me. His name is everywhere on the credits so it's just as much him as it is Jon.

I'm not fueling anything. I'm just offering my opinion. I said through that whole post that it was "in my opinion", "for me", "I think", "maybe" etc. I'm not trying to convince anyone that any of that is fact. It's just what I take from it. You're more than welcome to take the completely opposite view. I think that's called a discussion.

90% of this board is just speculation.

[Thinny]

Originally Posted by Alphavictim

For Jon and Richie to re-unite as writers would IMO imply they're not just churning out tunes in the studio to meet a deadline because old habits die hard and they just so happen to be in the same band. The writing sessions for WAN were probably short as hell, given Richie was recording his solo album pretty much at the same time. If they were to re-unite, I'd assume they realized what they got with each other and treat it with more care.

Plus, if he has RSO to do his more left field stuff and BJ for the bread & butter rock tunes, that'd help a lot. I don't feel like eating pizza all the time either, even though I really like the taste.

That's exactly right, I love the Pizza analogy. That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but you probably said it better and in less words! haha

[Alphavictim]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

I still push the fact that not playing on Wildflower and not being as involved with the the 4 new songs on HAND says a lot, and those are songs Jon wrote on his own (minus Last Cigarette with David. Or so the credits say *dramatic piano music*) and not produced by Shanks.

Who knows if he even played on any of the 4 new tunes. Weren't they done at the request of the record company, or rather, since they did not like the original album's track listing? Maybe Jon just went to the studio to fix this on his own (although Last Cigarette is peculiar - for one, yeah, David co-wrote it, and also, it's got a far busier and more intricate drum track than anything that's come after it... if it's Tico playing, of course).

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Thinny

I'm not fueling anything. I'm just offering my opinion. I said through that whole post that it was "in my opinion", "for me", "I think", "maybe" etc. I'm not trying to convince anyone that any of that is fact. It's just what I take from it. You're more than welcome to take the completely opposite view. I think that's called a discussion.

90% of this board is just speculation.

I'm not saying you're passing off what you're saying as fact, I mean in the realm of the discussion I'm trying to see where you're coming from so I CAN discuss it or rather find out what makes you have that stance I guess.

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Alphavictim

Who knows if he even played on any of the 4 new tunes. Weren't they done at the request of the record company, or rather, since they did not like the original album's track listing? Maybe Jon just went to the studio to fix this on his own (although Last Cigarette is peculiar - for one, yeah, David co-wrote it, and also, it's got a far busier and more intricate drum track than anything that's come after it... if it's Tico playing, of course).

Good point. Jon drunkenly admitted David didn't co-write Last Cigarette and his name was put on there as a favor or something.

Sometimes I can hear Richie's playing on the 4 songs, sometimes I can't. His backing vocals are 100 percent there but....the story on Story of My Life I go back and forth on. I'm 90 percent sure it's him. My point is him not being present on 1 song for sure could be a LOT of reasons but for that period of time him flat out not being present on something band related is peculiar.

[Alphavictim]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Good point. Jon drunkenly admitted David didn't co-write Last Cigarette and his name was put on there as a favor or something.

Eh, Jon also "drunkenly admitted" that Max Martin was only in the room for the writing for IML. Claiming more credit for his writing is not exactly something he only does when he loses control and "admits" to it.

Sometimes I can hear Richie's playing on the 4 songs, sometimes I can't. His backing vocals are 100 percent there but....the story on Story of My Life I go back and forth on. I'm 90 percent sure it's him. My point is him not being present on 1 song for sure could be a LOT of reasons but for that period of time him flat out not being present on something band related is peculiar.

While I really like HAND, safe for the solos the guitar work on that album is super basic, so it's not like there's much room for Richie to leave his mark on these tracks. Might actually contribute to what you're saying, that this was a sign of him losing interest, or that this made him lose interest - it DOES sound a lot like the other stuff Shanks produced at the time, but like you said, it wasn't Shanks producing these 4 songs. He was chosen because he did that style well, not the other way around (that he was chosen and then forced that style on the band).

On the other hand, Lost Highway has tons of fills and neat little lines... I'm not sure of how many were actually done by Richie. I mean, that album was done in Nashville and these guys have tons of session players around by default.

[Thinny]

Originally Posted by Alphavictim

On the other hand, Lost Highway has tons of fills and neat little lines... I'm not sure of how many were actually done by Richie. I mean, that album was done in Nashville and these guys have tons of session players around by default.

Jon & Richie definitely spent a lot of time together in Nashville during this period. I'm pretty sure that Richie is present for the whole of this album.

[Alphavictim]

Sure, but do we know that every little guitar line is his? He's not a country player by default. I'm not saying he slept on that one, but a lot of the little details might not be his playing.