[Roll]

***Another moderator tried to move these posts from the Burning Bridges thread and couldn't. I tried and also couldn't. The original Richie thread link isn't recognized as a valid link. Maybe it's too long at this point. At any rate, there's no point in clogging up the Burning Bridges thread with the Richie Drama. Proceed in this thread....

Originally Posted by Old Joysey

I guess now Jon believes it when Richie said, "At the end of the day, if you're going to buy a can of Coke, you want the real thing ."

The guy left in the middle of a tour without warning and he still gives lesson. That was one year and a half ago but I'm still amazed by how stupid Richie can be.

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Roll

The guy left in the middle of a tour without warning and he still gives lesson. That was one year and a half ago but I'm still amazed by how stupid Richie can be.

You don't know why he left. You don't know that he left without warning. You don't know that he's stupid. You apparently haven't learned yet that almost anyone can give lessons about something. And you can't count. (It's been almost two and a half years since Richie left.)

But you're amazed at how stupid Richie can be???

[Roll]

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

You don't know why he left. You don't know that he left without warning. You don't know that he's stupid. You apparently haven't learned yet that almost anyone can give lessons about something. And you can't count. (It's been almost two and a half years since Richie left.)

But you're amazed at how stupid Richie can be???

Well, when I read some guy explaining that people want the real stuff after he gave up on fans who had bought expensive tickets to actually see live the real deal, I certainly question this guy's common sense.
The thing is we all know what a mess Richie. As we all know why he left: because he couldn't stand being in Jon's shadow anymore.

As for the 1 year end a half, I wasn't referring to Richie's departure but to the date of the article I was reacting to. Kisses.

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Roll

Well, when I read some guy explaining that people want the real stuff after he gave up on fans who had bought expensive tickets to actually see live the real deal, I certainly question this guy's common sense.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you must also question the common sense of everyone who has said, in one way or another, that "it's just not Bon Jovi without Richie" because he only said what a number of people think. And that number includes not only quite a few of the fans on this board, but many of the people who reviewed their shows.

Bottom line: Just because you disagree with people's behavior - especially when you have no way of knowing their motivation - doesn't mean they're stupid. It only means that, just possibly, you are jumping to conclusions.

Originally Posted by Roll

The thing is we all know what a mess Richie. As we all know why he left: because he couldn't stand being in Jon's shadow anymore.

No, we don't know either of those things. We can only assume.

Originally Posted by Roll

As for the 1 year end a half, I wasn't referring to Richie's departure but to the date of the article I was reacting to. Kisses.

Well, then here's another lesson for you: There's no way I could know that you were referring to the article because, just like you, I only know what I read. And I came to the wrong conclusion because I incorrectly assumed that I knew what you were thinking and why you posted what you posted.

See how easily that can happen?

Mwahhhh!

Originally Posted by Supersonic

Aloha !

Yeah, I agree. After 4 Bon Jovi tours during which he was the biggest liability, his inability to actually learn the songs when going on tour, his inability to actually get a tour together, his inability to get a decent band together, his inability to properly promote his own stuff... There really isn't any reason to be amazed at how stupid Richie can be...

I'm actually amazed there's still people who defend his choice.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Well, gee Sebastiaan, when you put it that way... it becomes painfully clear that, in this particular situation, you don't have a clue in hell about the point I was making.

First, I've read a lot more about what a great liability Richie was on the last 4 tours since April 2013, than I ever read while those tours were going on, especially from you. In fact, IIRC, your opinion then was typically that it was Jon's lack of interest, declining vocal abilities, boring setlists, or whatever other burr had gotten under your saddle at the time that presented the biggest liability.

It's only been since Richie disappointed the fans that such a glaring spotlight has been focused on the insufferable ineptitude you and others apparently think he demonstrated during those tours. Keep in mind, too, that the fans' beef with Richie didn't come from his action as much it did from the fact that since they didn't know his reason(s), they assumed he didn't have one that was good enough to justify what he did. Many fans said it would have been okay if he had done it for the "right" reason.

Second, there are many people in this world who have all of the same "inabilities" you listed, but that doesn't prove that they're stupid. Some, in fact, are quite brilliant!

As for your parting shot, if you're referring to me, let me remind you that at no point in that post, or any other that I can recall, have I defended Richie's choice(s). I've never said that it was right for him to walk out on the tour; just that I believed there must be a good reason why he did it.

The only thing I've defended, from day one, is my opinion that people judge unfairly when they do so without having all the facts, which we just don't have in this situation and probably never will have. My opinion is one you apparently don't share, which is fine; but it's really not necessary to show your own "inability" to interpret a simple post in order to prove it.

[Roll]

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you must also question the common sense of everyone who has said, in one way or another, that "it's just not Bon Jovi without Richie" because he only said what a number of people think. And that number includes not only quite a few of the fans on this board, but many of the people who reviewed their shows.

Bottom line: Just because you disagree with people's behavior - especially when you have no way of knowing their motivation - doesn't mean they're stupid. It only means that, just possibly, you are jumping to conclusions.

]

The breach I mention in Richie's common sense is not about thinking Bon Jovi is no longer what it used to be without Richie, which is obvious, but about Richie's apparent problem with the band keeping touring while he's away. How stupid do you have to be for blaming them to keep playing when YOU ran away leaving the band and thousands of fans who had bought expensive tickets helpless? I'm sorry but when you go awol, the best you can do is keep your mouth shut.

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

No, we don't know either of those things. We can only assume.

We don't need to assume anything since he's everywhere saying how he used to be the frontman before he joined Bon Jovi and how he felt the urge to be the frontman again and that's the reason why he left Bon Jovi. There's no need to assume what the guy himself says.

Once again, I don't blame Richie for leaving because I can understand that after all these years he needed, his midlife crisis helping, something different. But let me blame him for doing it the Richie way, which means the dumbest way possible.

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Roll

]

The breach I mention in Richie's common sense is not about thinking Bon Jovi is no longer what it used to be without Richie, which is obvious, but about Richie's apparent problem with the band keeping touring while he's away. How stupid do you have to be for blaming them to keep playing when YOU ran away leaving the band and thousands of fans who had bought expensive tickets helpless? I'm sorry but when you go awol, the best you can do is keep your mouth shut.

Why on earth would Richie think that Jon would stop a tour because he didn't show up? He didn't stop it when Richie was in rehab in 2011 and that was apparently with Jon's blessing. You think Richie figured Jon would stop it if he pissed him off by walking away? It never even occurred to me that Jon would stop the tour. And Richie knows him a lot better than I do.

Originally Posted by Roll

]
We don't need to assume anything since he's everywhere saying how he used to be the frontman before he joined Bon Jovi and how he felt the urge to be the frontman again and that's the reason why he left Bon Jovi. There's no need to assume what the guy himself says.

He gave several reasons for needing a break. The assumption occurs when you decide that you, or anybody else outside of the people involved, can know for a fact that there aren't other reasons, perhaps some that he isn't sharing with the world at large, for why he didn't return to finish the tour.

He said the same thing about fronting when he was promoting Stranger in 91 and US in 98. Nobody thought that it was a midlife crisis when he said it then.

He also said he needed to be at home with his daughter and that the band needed a break from touring. All of those are valid reasons for needing a break, but none of them explain why he walked away mid-tour.

Given Bon Jovi's history of keeping dirty laundry to themselves, and sharing only the parts of the story they think will maintain the image they've always had, can you say with absolute certainty that the only reason, or even the primary reason, Richie didn't return to the tour is because he suddenly decided that he was tired of standing in Jon's shadow, as he had done for 30 years, and that there wasn't some other catalyst to trigger it?

Originally Posted by Roll

]
Once again, I don't blame Richie for leaving because I can understand that after all these years he needed, his midlife crisis helping, something different. But let me blame him for doing it the Richie way, which means the dumbest way possible.

You don't need my permission to blame anybody for anything. If that's what floats your boat, go for it.

In the meantime, this has gone way off-topic. I'll be happy to continue the discussion with you if you like. PM me if you want to carry it further, ok?

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

Well, gee Sebastiaan, when you put it that way... it becomes painfully clear that, in this particular situation, you don't have a clue in hell about the point I was making.

Actually, I do know which point you were making, but you're just not making it.

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

First, I've read a lot more about what a great liability Richie was on the last 4 tours since April 2013, than I ever read while those tours were going on, especially from you.

Well yeah, but that's because information has come out after the last 4 tours. When it comes to keeping the Bon Jovi brand going, the actual product, and producing a show in the first place, Richie has been the liability. Even during The Circle tour, rumours started to come out on how Richie wasn't showing up for rehearsals. Richie used to be the one in charge of rehearsals and soundchecks. That changed to David the last few years, even when Richie was still in the band. Some dirt has come out, both on this board and off this board when talking to crew members.

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

In fact, IIRC, your opinion then was typically that it was Jon's lack of interest, declining vocal abilities, boring setlists, or whatever other burr had gotten under your saddle at the time that presented the biggest liability.

There's a different liability here. When it comes to making the shows more spontaneous and playing more varied shows I'm absolutely positive it's been Jon who's holding back the entire thing. The creative thing in Bon Jovi was halted by Jon, and it still is. However, when it comes to actually playing the show in the first place, it's been kind of obvious how Richie has been the biggest liability. If you are unable to play, you're a liability. He was drunk pretty much the entire HAND tour, was incapable of doing MTV Unplugged, had to cancel a show in South America, dropped out of a leg in 2010 and then did the same thing in 2011. Yeah, that makes you the biggest liability out there, when it comes to actually playing a show and being in a band.

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

It's only been since Richie disappointed the fans that such a glaring spotlight has been focused on the insufferable ineptitude you and others apparently think he demonstrated during those tours. Keep in mind, too, that the fans' beef with Richie didn't come from his action as much it did from the fact that since they didn't know his reason(s), they assumed he didn't have one that was good enough to justify what he did. Many fans said it would have been okay if he had done it for the "right" reason.

And what would this right reason be? If you drop out of a tour and don't give any reason other than "needing to see your daughter", you're a moron. You sign up for a tour, and you finish it. Especially if at least 500.000 people have bought a ticket and expect you to be there. If he didn't want to tour, he shouldn't have signed up for it. It's that easy.

Now I'm sure there have been reasons that have not been shared with us, but there's just no excuse for his behaviour. There isn't, yet there's still people thinking that Richie left for a good reason. It's probably a good reason in Richie land, but other than that he's a selfish prick.

Second, there are many people in this world who have all of the same "inabilities" you listed, but that doesn't prove that they're stupid. Some, in fact, are quite brilliant!

And which ones would that be? There's been absolutely nothing in Richie's career the last decade that indicates that he's not a complete **** up.

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

Why on earth would Richie think that Jon would stop a tour because he didn't show up?

Because that's what he's been hinting at. Richie's never said it directly, but saying things like "Well it's not really Bon Jovi without me" pretty much means that he kind of expected the thing to be blown off. Just like he expected to return for the European and South American legs, and Jon telling him no was a surprise to him. That's what Roll's been saying.

It's not so much fans not willing to accept that these are the reasons that's the issue here, it's you who seems to need a valid other reason for Richie doing the things he does. It's as if you can't make peace with the thought of Richie actually dropping out for the reasons he stated.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[Walleris]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

Aloha !
Because that's what he's been hinting at. Richie's never said it directly, but saying things like "Well it's not really Bon Jovi without me" pretty much means that he kind of expected the thing to be blown off. Just like he expected to return for the European and South American legs, and Jon telling him no was a surprise to him. That's what Roll's been saying.

Can you elaborate? Where did you hear that? Or is it your assumption?

[bonjovi90]

Originally Posted by Walleris

Can you elaborate? Where did you hear that? Or is it your assumption?

There were a few interviews in 2013 where he said stuff like that. First he stated that "Hyde Park would be a realistic option for a return", later on it was the South American leg. Those statements were made by Richie while the tour was still going, of course.

[Rdkopper]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

Aloha !

And what would this right reason be? If you drop out of a tour and don't give any reason other than "needing to see your daughter", you're a moron.
Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

He did give a reason and a very valid one too.

I'm power phrasing here but he stated that it was just too much and consumed his entire life. It was a never ending cycle. They would tour and once the tour ended, he was back writing for the next record, recording, and touring again.

Saying he missed out on a lot of time with his daughter was his main reason but anyone with a little common sense could understand, after reading the above statement, that he means life. Friends, Family, his own solo records, etc have all been put on hold because of the Bon Jovi Corporation.

Something tells me that Jon's not the easiest person to work or get along with either...

The dude just burnt out and probably thought it was best to just go before he fell off the wagon again.