To the "Alec" lovers:

I think so...

That's all fine and dandy, but Iceman said "it's R&B, it's not rock."

Now that's someone smoking crack. Damned has a bluesy riff, and Hearts Breaking Even has a more R&B vocal to it, but that's all I hear. And they are both for sure rock songs.

If songs like My Guitar, These Days, Hey God, Something for the Pain, and Damned aren't rock, I don't know what rock is.

I said "depressing", not "depression". Maybe a study of English language perhaps?

http://www.google.com/search?q=depre...e673113bd855da

To me These Days is depressing. It has no positive songs, it's all about negativity. The only song that are remotely positive are Diamond Ring and If That's What It Takes. If you don't believe me, read the lyrics. It's all about losing someone, losing your faith, generally about bad things happening all around us. Not what I want from Bon Jovi.

And as you can see, this is one of those opinions that you're not allowed to have here at JoviTalk. These Days is your golden idol, one is not supposed to not like it. I don't hate it, I think there are great songs on it, but as a whole it makes me want to slit my wrists. Life isn't bad, life is good.

By my definition These Days has a few rock songs, but it's mostly R&B (as in rhythm and blues, soul. Not this "modern" RnB-crap). Doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not the rock band Bon Jovi was in the 80s.

Ice

The one thing we all agree on is there are two sides to every argument/story. I, for one, can see both here.

I have been in bands for about 17 years and there is nothing more corrosive than a band member not pulling in the same direction. I recall during the KTF tour that Alec and Richie both gave interviews talking about 'If I Was Your Mother' and how that is the direction they wanted to head in. They loved the loud, crunchy guitars, they wanted to explore something heavier.

I think Jon always has a game-plan and going back to 80s heavy rock was never it (much to my own displeasure). Alec, having been in the band for so long, would have felt like his feet were well and truly under the table. He would have felt untouchable. In my own experience, you have three types of band member. Number one, the 'quarterback', The 'CEO' - He puts together the set, he organises where you play, how you play and what you play. He puts the work in and as Dave says on 'WWWB' - if those decisions lead you down an unprofitable path, you speak up and make your vote count. If it leads to success, then you're happy to be along for the ride. Dave is the second type of band member; submissive to a point but as long as the waters remain calm, he's happy to sit at the back of the boat and do his part.

The third type, which I have experienced several times, is the one who doesn't put the work in but has his viewpoint and wants to be heard anyway. Speaking purely from my own dealings, as a frontman and 'quarterback' as it were, this is frustrating. Not because you want everyone to be passive followers but because when you carry the load and things are going well, if someone is undermining you for their own self-gratification and not thinking of the band, it's hugely corrosive.

We had a drummer a while back who wanted to play songs that just didn't fit the band because he liked them. He engineered things to a point that every time a new cover was added to the set, he would say 'well, if you're picking a song, I want to pick a song and I want to do XXXX'. I would point out that that song would bomb live, we're not known for that type of music, so, other than him, who exactly would get a buzz from it? Certainly not our audience. It got to the point where he threatened to quit, so I accepted it and said 'okay mate, sorry you feel that way, off you go.' But the fact is, everyone in the band was waiting for one tiny reason to get shot of him anyway because although we're all friends, we are all pulling in the same direction, all thinking of the THE BAND not ourselves.

I need to state that I much prefer Bon Jovi in the Alec years. I don't feel superior to those who never saw him play then but then I do take umbrage at those who mock it by saying 'those nostalgia freaks who say it was a the brotherhood and they feel special blah blah'. Screw you. Screw you so much.

You never saw it and you never will, so don't tell me why I prefer it. It wasn't all about the fact that the music was better (a matter of opinion but the fact is, I loved Bon Jovi when they were the biggest band in the world, which points to the fact that their music WAS better in the SWW/NJ period - others will argue that it was just more fashionable but the fact is, their staple live tracks are from '86-'92... so you make up your own mind). It was about the attitude.

It was about the fact that they didn't seem like a business, not 100%. Jon never phoned in a performance. They still played like the bar band who got lucky and worked so frikkin' hard every night to stay on top. Alec was integral to that. I think the thing people are missing is the change in the band since he left has manifested itself in Jon's personna, which is the biggest change of all. He wanted this to be E-Street; a loyal gang from around the neighbourhood who follow the skinny kid with a dream and that all ended because he had to cut one of them out. I think it got to Jon and it hurt him, probably made him harder as a person.

If any single one of the people who've commented that they don't understand why we miss him has even once complained about Bobby being in the band, then you're hypocrites. Because as a guitarist, Bobby doesn't detract from the band except for one single solo. You don't like Bobby there because it doesn't feel like your band is the same anymore. You complain about his hair etc etc... He stands at the back for f*&k's sake, what do you care!? You care because it changes the dynamic of the band and it also cements a long held belief that Jon lost his passion for the 'brotherhood' a long time ago - he can add and subtract members and it no longer bothers him.

Finally, imagine Dave is thrown out and a clearly better keyboard player is brought in, then come back to me and tell me I am a nostalgia freak for missing my band as it was when I was growing up.

No... I love his unruffled, no frills presence.

A lot of good points. That might be why I'm so detached from the Alec thing. I wasn't there for it, it wasn't my "era" so I don't feel that connection. Fair enough.

Interesting opinions there!

I just don't like some people's attitude in discussions. Acting like they've eaten the truth.

Reading the interviews with Alec from 1994 was really interesting and it kinda reveals the whole the relationships and problems etc.
I've really a lot of bootlegs but I couldn't hear Alec screw up. Speaking about the Alec era, there weren't many mistakes done but if there were any it was Jon. Yes, Alec's guitar might have been turned down. I don't believe it. Hugh is a better bass player but Alec wasn't a bad one. I think he shouldn't have spoken to the media. I think he revealed what was hidden about KTF sessions. The band went to the studio to write songs and used Hugh for majority of the parts. Btw there is no official statement who played which note. KTF really sounds like Hugh as does LOAP but I still think Alec played on all of the albums as well. And btw, Hugh is not credited on Fahrenheit at all and on the first records I think he is there because of Runaway only. I think he helped more from SWW onwards. I think Jon and the band were fine things this way - Alec wasn't a studio type musicians (his own words) he preferred live shows (his own words) so his input in studio was little and Hugh (mainly a session musician) played what was needed. I think this is how it was for KTF and how it was supposed to be for TD. If Alec didn't speak. He thought he can come back for the tour but Jon decided not to do one more time.
It may sound silly but that's how I see it.

Brian, I also think Huey looks cool. He has his style. That's why I'm pissed they pushed him back on stage.

Yup, agreed.